Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hey, it’s Theresa. You know, it’s probably fair to say that the past few months have not been kind to Mother Earth. The climate change summit in Glasgow last fall was pivotal. More than 100 countries reaffirmed their commitment to take action on greenhouse gas emissions. But since then, the world has been hit by a series of shocks from the invasion of Russia to soaring inflation. The rising cost of energy has forced many countries to delay or scale back their climate ambitions, and many are looking to Canada and its abundance of energy for desperately needed supply. But we’re steeped in yet another summer of record heat and forest fires. Once again, this proves that the need for meaningful climate action has never been more important. Add to that the very real and complex challenges of balancing energy and climate security that need for balance and to embrace a more holistic approach to energy development is something that Canada’s indigenous leaders have been stressing for decades. In this special best of episode of Disruptors, we revisit three conversations John and I had over the past season with some of Canada’s most thought provoking indigenous leaders. Each plays a pivotal role in Canada’s energy future. After the break, you’ll hear John’s discussions with Mark Podlasly of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition and also with Crystal Smith, chief of the House, the First Nation. Both of them are trying to build strategies and secure buy in for an Indigenous led energy transition. But first, my interview from last fall with JP Gladu. JP is a board member of Suncor Energy, which has committed itself to becoming a net zero emitter by 2050. He’s also a principal at equity consultancy and a former CEO of the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business. JP Welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:01:56] It’s really nice to be here. Thank you. Speaker 1 [00:01:57] From 2012 to late last year, you served as President and CEO of the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, whose mission is to promote, strengthen and enhance a prosperous Indigenous economy. When you look back, how did the canopy address sustainable prosperity during your leadership? Speaker 2 [00:02:17] What I feel most proud about is the growth of its programs and its presence and research. You and I both know if you don’t have great data, it’s hard to change policy. It’s hard to change thinking and to keep as a leader, a world leader in developing research by indigenous people for indigenous people to influence outcomes. I want to talk a little bit, if it’s all right, sir. One of the my roles since then, I’m the chair of the Boreal Leadership Champions, and that is a group of companies and indigenous leaders from oil, gas, mining, forestry, energy. We’re all trying to find a place and we’re developing some thought leadership with all these companies around responsible development, around Indigenous protected conservation, because we need those natural services to be able to live a stronger future, an environment to hand down to our kids. Speaker 1 [00:03:11] Can you describe that connection between indigenous led conservation and economic reconciliation and how that might also apply to energy production? Speaker 2 [00:03:19] For a long time we’ve been shut out of the Canadian economy. We had the fur trade which sustained our communities, and then we were told our communities were told that harvesting furs was not appropriate anymore. So, okay, well, we don’t want to live in poverty. We don’t want government handouts. So what’s next? Well, we’ll look to the mining so that a lot of our communities are in the north. So we’ll look to the extraction sectors to generate revenue, to generate income, to generate an economy. When we talk about economic reconciliation. It means that we’re generating wealth and we’re managing that wealth and we’re empowering our communities. We know that we can actually find a better balance between extraction and indigenous protected conservation areas and sustainable development and more trees. Because our natural service ecosystems provide billions, trillions of dollars that we don’t even think about when it comes to clean air, clean water. You know, think of all the health impacts that occur if you don’t have a clean environment. But we also, as an indigenous community, are having these tough conversations around, well, we’re going to transition, it’s going to take time. So oil and gas is going to be a part of our economy for years to come. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be putting time and effort and resources and research into actually improving that technology. So there’s a balance to be struck, and we’re not going to find that balance without the indigenous voice. We need to be at the table every step of the way from any kind of development to any kind of protected area and developing economies around those protected areas. Speaker 1 [00:04:52] On more practical level. To what extent might there be concern among indigenous communities, especially those who partner with big oil and gas, about developing these resources, which knowing that oil demand will not wane for a while, eventually it will wane to some degree. So knowing that that long term demand will wane along with perhaps the value of these properties, what concerns are there around that? Speaker 2 [00:05:14] Well, I think the biggest concerns are, again, that question of balance, balance of generating economies. So we’re not poor all the time and not government handouts, but also making sure that we’ve got areas that we can rely on for our traditional activities in the clean water and the clean air. I mean, I just had my daughter visiting me for my reserve the last five days of me remote sensing and I’m on a lake. And let me let me paint this picture for you. I live on Lake Michigan. Our whole lake is protected and it’s the biggest lake in Ontario, surrounded by the Ontario borders. Beautiful. I hunt on it. I fish. I caught a beautiful speckled trout, my fly rod. This weekend I release her because she is a female and she was spawning. But, you know, we’re the guardians of the land and put us in that place so that we can continue to protect her. But we also have a lithium mine site, just not because of road access to our reserves. We have two hydro developments that we’re partners and we have a sawmill. We have old railway bed that goes to our community and we have the natural gas line that cuts across our community as well that my grandfather, one of my grandfathers, helped build. We’ve got all the resource activities there and so we’re trying to find that balance to make sure that the land that needs to be protected is protected and that we are the ones that are also becoming the equity partners and the decision makers in the way that resource projects get developed and that we also benefit from it. Speaker 1 [00:06:34] If I can pivot just slightly so I know you wear a lot of hats and among the many hats that. Where you sit in the Suncor board. Suncor is transforming itself into a more sustainable energy producer and is targeting 2050 as the year they become net zero. What do you think about that target and what are the biggest challenges still to overcome on that journey? Speaker 2 [00:06:56] Yeah, it’s a lofty goal. I mean, but the thing is that not only Suncor, we’ve got Imperial Central, Meg Cenovus, 90% of the oilsands producers are all committed to this. So you have more partners committing to technology, more partners committing to reducing GHG is getting better at water use, getting better at Indigenous consultation, engagement and empowerment. Strength in numbers. So I think because of that commitment with all of these companies, it is achievable. Speaker 1 [00:07:30] And there’s still an open question on energy production at its most basic, whether it’s better to find ways to reduce the carbon emissions in traditional extraction or to shift focus to develop more renewable energy sources. And of course, it’s not just an or question. Speaker 2 [00:07:47] It’s and it’s. Speaker 1 [00:07:48] And so what would you say is the best path for the right mix to meet our future energy needs? Speaker 2 [00:07:53] I think you said it’s the mix. I don’t know if anybody has a crystal ball on this because there’s so much uncertainty. We’re investing in hydrogen, we’re investing in carbon capture. We’re we have to spend more time investing in our natural capital of trees. I think it’s one of the best carbon eating machines that I know as a forester. So, so you know, companies like Suncor are investing the time and resources in those types of technologies, but we cannot rely just on one. It’s like a balanced portfolio. When I look at my RRSP or my investment accounts, I’m distributed across, I’ve got some risky investments and some of these investments that we’re exploring the technology, there’s risk, but the payoff could be amazing. Speaker 1 [00:08:36] You often talk about a just transition. Can you elaborate more on what you mean by that? Speaker 2 [00:08:42] Absolutely. I want to fill up this morning. You know, I live in the north. I’m a hunter and I’m 2 hours from Thunder Bay, so I have a truck. And it’s always interesting when we think about environmentalism, it’s always easier to be an environmentalist. When you ask everybody else to do the hard work, it really is. It’s it’s baffling sometimes. DiCaprio comes up to the oil sands and chastises the oil sands for for oil and gas development. When he flies around the world, is that a billion whatever boats and helicopters and they come on like, let’s be real here. But so we’re just trying so I’ll get off my soapbox. But the just transition is. Yes, yes. I mean, I sit on an oil and gas company. I also chair the boiler of champions around conservation. I took my daughter hunting and a clean environment. We need both. And the just transition is the fact that we’ve got two sides here and we’re trying to build a bridge and to meet that bridge to make sure that we can travel in a clean environment and a sustainable economy. The renewables, the batteries, the infrastructure for it, for battery cars, the wind, the solar. We just don’t have the capacity to meet world demand for energy. So oil and gas is going to be here for quite a while yet. And we’ve got to make sure that we hold corporations accountable to their targets. We need to make sure that we have a little bit more balance in the way that we develop our resource sector. It’s not perfect. It’s getting better. We see the goalposts and we’re trying to navigate between those posts and we’ve got Indigenous inclusion, that is, it’s got to get better, but it’s definitely 100% better than it was even ten years ago. But that transition is going to take time. Speaker 1 [00:10:32] Coming up after the break, we’ll revisit a conversation John had with two B.C. indigenous leaders who are reshaping the way we approach energy development in Canada. So stay right there. You’re listening to Disruptors and RBC podcast. I’m Theresa Doerr. I would like you to know about a new weekly report from RBC Economics. It’s called Proof Point, and it provides original, timely economic insights from RBC Economics and Thought Leadership Team. Find out why businesses will continue to be challenged by labor shortages even after the economy’s next recession. Or learn how this country could help feed the world amid the food crisis and what it means for our carbon emissions targets. To explore more, visit our BBC.com thought leadership. Welcome back. On today’s episode where resurfacing some of the most insightful conversations we’ve had here on disruptors with indigenous leaders on the question of Canada’s energy transition. Earlier this spring, John spoke with two B.C. leaders with a keen sense of how to build a more inclusive and sustainable energy partnership. First up, here’s John in conversation with Mark. But lastly. Speaker 3 [00:11:48] Mark put lastly is Director of Economic Policy and initiatives at the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, which is a national collective of more than 65 Indigenous nations seeking ownership of major projects such as pipelines and electric infrastructure. He’s also director of governance at the First Nations Financial Management Board, which is leading the development of an indigenous response to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Mark, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:12:17] Well, thank you. I’m very pleased to be here, John. Speaker 3 [00:12:19] I wonder, Mark, if we can start with some reflections on the impact of climate change, because you’re part of a nation and a community in South Central B.C. that has not only been devastated by climate change, but also captured the world’s attention. Maybe you can share a bit of what you’ve you’ve learned from that experience. Speaker 2 [00:12:41] Well, we are from the carbon, which is in central interior, British Columbia, South Central B.C. and we had both of the big climate events of British Columbia hit us within six months. The first was the fire at Lytton. Lytton as one of our communities in our nation where the temperature went to almost 50 degrees Celsius, hottest temperature in Canadian history, and then the place burned to the ground the next day. And then last winter, we had the atmospheric river come through and it hit Merritt, which is also one of our nations communities. And the rivers just washed everything out. There were 38 washouts in both directions up to my community, washed away the reserve where my mother was born. It’s gone completely. And Highway eight still isn’t rebuilt. So it’s it’s been a horrific year climate wise for us. Speaker 3 [00:13:23] And people around the world watched in horror and some said this is why we need to get off fossil fuels immediately or as quickly as possible. And yet many of the communities that were devastated by this are also investing in projects that will continue to ensure that oil and gas get to people in Canada and around the world. How do you balance what some see as a contradiction and others just see as a as a challenge between those two points of view? Speaker 2 [00:13:53] I think what’s important to remember is that this is an energy transition. There is a point where we are going to have to stop using a lot of these fossil fuels, but in order for us to do that instantly is going to cause enormous pain. We just don’t have the renewables and in the amount we need to do an instant switch. So I think right now it’s a question of smart decisions about which petroleum based assets we will develop and use. The references you’ve made to a lot of First Nations, particularly in B.C., around LNG, LNG as a cleaner fuel than oil. And that is where a lot of first nations are putting their effort right now. So it’s a transition. It’s not going to be instant. Speaker 3 [00:14:31] What Indigenous perspectives do we need to be more mindful of in terms of finding this balance? Speaker 2 [00:14:37] I think to look at this is that indigenous people right now are very invested. Some indigenous people are very invested in the petroleum and the energy sector and there’s a lot of interest right now in developing sources of energy that are cleaner. And I think that’s where indigenous people, at least from the Coalition, are willing and happy to proceed. The question we have is we don’t want to be caught off guard in the development of new energy systems like we were in the past, where they are coming from our lands and our resources and we are not benefiting from that. So there’s a lot of hard questions to be asked about what’s our energy mix going to be. And then for Canadian society about what’s the role of indigenous people on whom our lands are are basically tied to these energy, either in clean energy and hydroelectricity or solar or wind or in petroleum and natural gas. There’s some tough questions that have to be worked out. Speaker 3 [00:15:27] Tell us a bit about the the Major Projects Coalition, how it came about and what it’s trying to achieve. Speaker 2 [00:15:32] The major projects coalitions started about six or seven years ago when 16/1 nations in northern British Columbia had an opportunity to acquire equity in a pipeline project. They then went out to try and source that equity and found that it was too expensive. The cost of capital because First Nations, the way we organized under the Indian Act, we don’t own our land, we don’t own our assets. They’re held in trust by the government. And trying to actually raise money on assets that you don’t own is a fruitless exercise. There’s just banks wouldn’t do it. So if we could get capital, it would be at the cost of credit card type rates. And it’s just just not economic. So the 16/1 nations said, you know what, this is could happen to us again, so we’re going to be ready the next time. So they formed the coalition as a service organization, 2/1 nations, to improve their technical ability to access capital and technical skills and finding people who could assist them prepare for the next deals that would come around. And it’s happened. You’re starting to see it now from those 16 we have grown to 85. The coalition does not market itself. It is all by word of mouth. And these are first nations who are being approached by proponents of major projects looking for commercial partners. And we provide this service to those communities to ask the right questions about going into those projects. Speaker 3 [00:16:48] What sort of projects are you looking at or communities looking at? Speaker 2 [00:16:52] There are energy projects, a lot of clean energy projects now, either in hydroelectricity or partial ownership of transmission lines. And those include the gambit of geothermal. Hydrogen is now coming up as more and more communities are being approached. Transmission lines, pipelines have come up in discussion. There’s railway discussions now about everything from via rail project in Ontario and Quebec to other projects here in British Columbia and sometimes mining companies as well. Mining companies looking to access critical minerals for net zero batteries and car manufacturers. Those are all coming up. Speaker 3 [00:17:25] The climate transition is going to take a lot of capital. Our research at RBC estimates Canadians will need to invest or mobilize $2 trillion over the next 25 to 30 years. That’s roughly $80 billion a year or about four times what we’re investing in transition activities right now. How can we see more indigenous capital mobilize Mark and perhaps do so more quickly? Speaker 2 [00:17:51] Well, I’m glad you noted that there is indigenous capital in this country. My community has a revenue sharing deal with a mining company in our territory and when we started to set that up, we did some research to find out how much indigenous capital is there in Canada and we found just the back of the envelope calculations at that time, about $8 billion of assets under management by Indigenous people. And it’s not in one spot. It’s it’s different settlements from either land treaties from from negotiations with mining companies or energy companies. We figure now that somewhere between 13 and 18 billion my nation has a fund right now of about 50 million. And we have the ability and the fund to make direct placements into investments that that will grow that fund. Most of these nations do. So the capital is there. The question, though, is that how how can indigenous people directly invest in these projects? I think for a lot of the financial sector, they don’t see us as Indigenous investors. The idea of being an indigenous investor seems to be an oxymoron to some of these companies who come into territories and don’t think of Indigenous people in that sense. That has to change. Speaker 3 [00:18:54] Mark we’ve been exploring through this podcast series the incredible challenges that Canada is facing in terms of finding a balance between energy security, ensuring that we have affordable, accessible energy, and that we’re able to support other countries, especially our allies, with that while facing extraordinarily inflationary pressures and balance out with climate security and the race. And it really is a race to net zero. How do you think about these these challenges and many more from an indigenous perspective, which often suggests more time is needed if we’re to make the right decisions and we need to think generally. Rationally and not be in such a rush. How do you balance that need to really get things done in a hurry and not be wasteful in the process? Speaker 2 [00:19:40] I bring us back to the discussion of the atmospheric rivers and the fires and Lytton that happened last summer. You’re right, we have limited time now to save the climate and that affects all of us. It’s not just indigenous people versus the rest of the country or the federal government. By 2030, we’re supposed to have shifted most of our vehicle sales 50% anyway in this country over to electric vehicles. It takes more than eight years to build a mine. Never mind power stations. We as indigenous people are in this with everybody else. So there have to be, as you said, smart decisions made. And the only way smart decisions are going to be made is that there’s a wholesome, fully engaged discussion from the beginning about what we’re going to do. Speaker 1 [00:20:22] One woman with her finger on the pulse of her community’s needs is Crystal Smith, chief of the House The First Nation. Here’s part of John’s chat with Chief Smith. Speaker 3 [00:20:35] Crystal Smith is the elected chief of the Hyslop people, centered on Kitimat village along BC’s northern coast. In November 2019, she was named chair of the First Nations LNG Alliance, a group committed to encouraging First Nations development of what was then a nascent liquid natural gas industry and providing employment and other sustainable benefits for BC’s Indigenous people. She Smith, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 4 [00:21:00] Thank you for having me. Speaker 3 [00:21:01] I wondering if you can share a bit of the Hyslop story because it’s not a well understood story, unfortunately, across Canada. Tell us a bit about what what the community has built over the last decade. Speaker 4 [00:21:13] One thing that I definitely think that is important for people to understand is that while we’re being a part of a new industry, that our nation isn’t new to industrial development. Overall, we’ve witnessed methanol plant, aluminum smelter, a pulp and paper mill be developed and built and operated in our territory for 20 to 50 years. And essentially we’ve sat on that on the sidelines, witnessed the destruction of our territory, our environment and our cultural resources to being active partners within a process where we had a seat at the table with LNG, Canada and Coastal Gaslink talking about what was important ties like what it means to be Heizer. Having our seat at the table gave us a huge responsibility in terms of being landlords of all of our resources and giving advice to developers and builders as to how to safely do it with minimal impacts to our environment. One of our elected leaders, Seeber Maitland, he was a chief councilor in the eighties, I believe termed the saying that we just wanted a share and a say. We wanted a share of the the wealth that was being generated. We wanted a share of the employment opportunities that were available. And we wanted to see as to how they were being built, how it was being developed. And today, I can proudly say that we’re we’re there as a part of LNG Canada, coastal gaslink and more so now as owners 51% owners of Cedar LNG with our partners. Speaker 3 [00:22:47] Pembina And in terms of development, what has been done differently because of that share and say. Speaker 4 [00:22:54] For an example one of our very important cultural resources to to our nation is that will again. And so the spawning time or the the time that they would come into the rivers is in between February and March. And there’s not too many other levels of government or any other entities that put a value on the ULA camp. But but it’s a huge staple of our HYSLOP identity. So in terms of the, say, LNG, Canada was doing some dredging and within that process of doing the the permit application, we worked out the issues prior to that permit being applied for so that as opposed to the permit going into the regulators and then coming back to us for four questions, it actually went along with our support when being filed and that involved no dredging during February and March when the other can could possibly arrive. Speaker 3 [00:23:55] One of the big ideas we’re trying to explore is this challenge that Canada now faces of needing to produce more resources both for Canadians and for the world, and do that more sustainably. We have very ambitious climate targets, among other environmental goals. And at the same time, to pursue reconciliation in more and more meaningful ways. How do we do that, especially in the short timeframe that many people believe we have to reach goals like net zero? Speaker 4 [00:24:25] Well, for one, for the Cedar LNG. Even before ESG became a thing, our team actually sat in a room in Vancouver for, I want to say, a week to go over proposals for a partner. How much money the nation would make wasn’t a huge priority. The priority was what kind of technology will you use and will you use air cooled or water cooled? We stuck to what we wanted for our environment, and we chose a partner that aligned their visions and their desires with the nation. And actually, I remember throughout that process there was one RFP that came in and that the executives would not leave the topic. And they were very adamant that the project needed to make money. If the project didn’t make as much money as they envisioned, the nation wouldn’t make as much money as we desired. And I had looked at our team and I said, I don’t think this conversation needs to go any further. And and the room kind of looked at me stunned. Our team looked stunned. And I said, there’s no compromise. And what we’re saying is that we want minimal impacts. I’m not willing to stand up in front of our community and say we chose money over our environment. And so I looked at the rest of the elected leaders and said, are you willing to do that? And the answer was no when the conversation ended. Speaker 3 [00:25:47] You’ve said that the Coastal Gaslink project, which will transport natural gas from northeastern B.C. to Kitimat, promises. I think you use the word transformational benefits for the Haisla Nation. Can you explain what you mean by transformational? Speaker 4 [00:26:01] You know, we think about what we’ve been able to do and being a part of a process where, you know, coastal Gaslink and LNG Canada took the time to understand and get to know who we are and why certain circumstances remain the same. And it was because of our past history with the industrial development and having proponents come in and, and learn who you are and what you want to accomplish and align themselves of of saying this is where we can help with that vision. Here is where we can help with that goal and being partners within that process and providing resources that necessarily weren’t provided before. We have the lowest unemployment rate right now. If you want to work, you can work. There’s nobody that that doesn’t have an opportunity. So that’s on one level where I’m saying it’s it’s transformational. And with its own source revenue, are funds being generated by impact benefit agreements? We now have the ability to work on behalf of our people. Our chiefs and council and our staff have that ability to create programs that actually deliver what is required and what is needed. And we’re able to prioritize what is important. Our culture and language is is a huge example. I had a meeting last night at dinner meeting and I’ve got a twin identical twin sister and I was sharing how my day started yesterday. It’s my first day back after two weeks off of work, and she shared an audio recording of her speaking her language. I’m sorry. Speaker 3 [00:27:39] No. Take your time. Speaker 4 [00:27:41] We grew up with our grandparents, and when they didn’t want us to know what they were talking about, they would speak our language. And hearing her speak, it gives me hope that my grandchildren will be able to speak our language and will know exactly what it means to be high. So they will learn their culture, they will learn how to harvest food, they will learn their language. And that is so important. Speaker 3 [00:28:12] Thank you for sharing that. It’s inspiring, it’s beautiful. And also, I imagine quite challenging for as it is for any community with strong traditions around the world to preserve culture and tradition. I wonder if I can wrap up with one last question about economic reconciliation and what you think the rest of Canada needs to come to grips with. For communities like yours and leaders like you to navigate this journey. Speaker 4 [00:28:42] It’s a process that but we have to be a part of and that it’s putting a lot of responsibility and expectations on on proponents and other levels of government. But this process internally has been long, difficult. Huge learning curves. And in terms of what we’ve been a part of. So essentially give some time because it’s not an overnight process. An entity has its shareholders and its board of directors, our shareholders, our 1900 members, and that’s just specifically Haisla. And that’s who essentially gives us our mandate of a yes or a no. And again, not all of us are the same. Some of us will be a little bit quicker and have had a lot of practice in that process. But give time, get to know the community, get to know what their goals and what their visions are. Speaker 1 [00:29:32] This has been a special best of episode of Disruptors. Thanks again to our guests, Christopher Smith, Mark Pitt, lastly and JP Gladu. We hope you enjoyed this trip down memory lane. And a little note for our listeners. Disruptors will be taking a summer hiatus for the next few weeks. We look forward to having you join us again in the fall. Until then, I’m Theresa Do and this is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Speaker 4 [00:29:59] Disruptors, an RBC Podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by JAR Audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our rbc.com slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hey, it’s Theresa. All of us contribute to the global climate crisis. Everything from the planes, trains and automobiles we travel on, the food we eat and the buildings where we work and live all produce greenhouse gas emissions. And I know you’ve heard a lot about how important it is to reduce GHG emitting activities and to change our lifestyles. But it can be hard, really hard, sometimes even really expensive. And there are just some activities perhaps based on where you live or your personal needs that can’t be realistically cut out of your life. But there is a way to help counterbalance some of our emissions and climate damage. Enter carbon offsets, make a purchase online, also draw emissions for that particular purchase, book a flight and offset the carbon generated from your seat and travel length on that flight. The list goes on. But are these voluntary offsets a viable solution or just greenwashing? This is disruptors, the ten minute take where we dove into the latest innovation, tech and economic buzz. This week’s take is on carbon offsets. What are they? How do they work and how do we know if they’re actually effective? To offer some insights, we’re joined by Suha Jethalal, the CEO of Bullfrog Power, a Canadian green energy retailer that offers electricity from renewable energy sources. And full disclosure, RBC is a Bullfrog Power customer. Suha, welcome to the 10 minute take. Speaker 2 [00:01:28] Thank you so much, Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:01:29] So according to your website last year, your customers have offset more than 67,000 tonnes of carbon. And this basically means that they participate in activities that generated 67,000 tonnes of carbon emissions and then paid for reducing that same amount elsewhere. And I personally paid for carbon offsets on my flights to through less taxes. So can you tell our audience how that works and what types of carbon emitting activities can be offset today? Speaker 2 [00:01:57] So carbon offsets allow individuals and organizations to mitigate the emissions from one activity like necessary air travel that you mentioned with another activity elsewhere that avoids the reduces the same amount of emissions from being released into the atmosphere. So essentially the money goes to paying for a reduction in greenhouse gases that has already occurred through another project potentially globally. You know, say you’re flying from Toronto to Vancouver, you’re emitting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere by taking that flight. And you may address your emissions by purchasing carbon offsets from, let’s say, a project in Uganda that circulates water filters to avoid the burning of wood to boil water for safer drinking. And there are many other projects you could choose to reduce the impact of that flight. Speaker 1 [00:02:51] Can you share more about some of these projects and which ones Bullfrog Power tends to invest in? Like, how do you decide which ones to look at? Speaker 2 [00:03:00] So Bullfrog Power offers green energy solutions. So green electricity, green natural gas, green fuel. RBC has been a leader in this space, a customer of ours for many years, and one of our goal for our companies is less emissions that offers these carbon offsets. Now Last is ranked as the highest quality offset provider by the David Suzuki Foundation and the Pembina Institute. Our offsets are transparent. They’re verified by a third party and certified. They’re truly additional and making a difference in the environment. They’re permanent and they’re recent. In addition, they’re serialized and tracked on internationally recognized registries, so they’re completely transparent. The types of projects that we focus on are all meeting the highest standard of certification. So Gold Standard, or they’re A-plus CSA certified projects that we know are meeting the Kyoto protocols, clean development mechanism criteria for quantification, and they are meeting the highest criteria determined by the U.N. Now it’s really important to choose high quality offsets because, you know, there is some murkiness in the offset markets where you may not necessarily know if it’s truly permanent and truly adding value. There needs to be more standardization in the offset market. So you know that the measurement of the impact of that offset is truly in addition to what would have happened without it, that there wasn’t funding already in place to make that project happen, that it’s truly incremental. Speaker 1 [00:04:41] Yes, I was I was just going to ask you about how we as consumers verify which projects are high quality and that we can trust to, you know, invest in. How would you advise people looking to offset their emissions and doing their due diligence for these sorts of projects? Speaker 2 [00:05:00] I think it would be really important to see that they meet the U.N. CDM protocol and that they are gold standard certified or meeting other similar high standard certifications. You can also trust less emissions offset projects because they’re all serialized and tracked on registry. So you know that there’s not going to be any double counting of these things, right? They’re all globally tracked. In addition, it would be important to think about the types of projects you look at. So, for example, forestry, reforestation is essential and critical and an important activity. But let’s say you choose a project that in two years is destroyed by forest fires. Or let’s say you choose to invest in a project where it’s protecting a part of a forest, and that’s actually leading to deforestation. In another part of the forest. So there is leakage. You need to investigate the types of projects you’re looking at and make sure that they’re going to be permanent. They’re going to be lasting. They’re going to be additional and truly adding value. And I think going to a provider that you can trust verifies all of that for you is a start. So we, for example, have a voluntary independent audit that we conduct with an international accounting firm to ensure that all of our projects are, in fact, certified to the highest standards and meet all the criteria that we lay out. So, Suha, what’s the Speaker 1 [00:06:37] Demand been for offsets? How has uptake changed over the last few years? Speaker 2 [00:06:43] So I think the demand has risen because people have become so aware of the climate impacts, because they truly do want to make a difference. And there are some areas where there really isn’t a greener or more viable solution. So air travel is one of those areas. If you look at air travel, gas, of course, we wish there was, you know, aviation, biofuel available or commercial electric flights available that we could take. But since those options aren’t viable, offsets are a good solution in the interim until those are available to us. And so we have seen with increased awareness of the climate problem, we’ve seen an uptick in the demand for offsets. And I use the example of air travel, but that was obviously impacted by COVID. But whenever anyone was taking necessary flights, I think, you know, many people were turning to offsets to reduce their emissions. And we’re seeing travel come back into play now. And our demand has been going up in the offset space. And actually many projections are showing that carbon offset demand will increase tenfold in the next decade. Speaker 1 [00:07:58] And out of curiosity, do you have any numbers on the proportion of air travelers who are starting to purchase more carbon offsets? Speaker 2 [00:08:06] It’s still less than 1%. Speaker 1 [00:08:08] Yeah, that’s wild. Speaker 2 [00:08:09] Yeah, we need to do better. And I think, you know, yes, it’s grown, but it’s going to need to grow exponentially at some point. Speaker 1 [00:08:16] I assume that the world will no longer have the capacity to offset more emissions, and instead we have to strictly focus on reducing carbon emissions. So how do you see something like carbon offsets evolving? And as we increasingly move towards a net zero world, what role will they play, if anything? Not just for corporations but perhaps for individuals? Speaker 2 [00:08:37] So I think offsets are a good interim solution where greener solutions and technologies don’t exist. I think the best thing we can do is change our behaviors and offsetting offers us this solution now. And we don’t always have the greenest technologies available, but it is not. Our path out of this climate crisis or our path out of the climate crisis is truly evolving our behaviors and our products so that they are green offsets. You know, there’s a lot of criticism around them just delaying the problem at hand. They’re offering a solution for polluters to keep polluting. But I still think offsets are a good choice in doing something over nothing. But we need to act fast in developing the greener technologies and solutions that will get us out of this climate crisis. Speaker 1 [00:09:31] That’s a really powerful note to end on her. Thank you so much for the nuance and for this conversation. Speaker 2 [00:09:36] Thank you so much, Teresa. Speaker 1 [00:09:39] As we heard, carbon offsets, carbon credits, they are an option of last resort after we’ve made every possible attempt to reduce our emissions by changing our behavior or switching to green powered alternatives, we’re not going to offset our way out of climate change. But it is a useful interim solution, as you said, and a way for consumers to be more mindful of our carbon footprint and for those GHG emitting moments and activities that are just not feasible to cut out of our lives yet. That’s it for this week’s ten minute take. Join us again next week for a special best of episode on Indigenous leadership in the clean energy transition. Until then, I’m Theresa Doe. Talk to you soon. Speaker 3 [00:10:21] Disruptors, the ten minute take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by JAR Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:03] Hey, it’s Theresa. Have you tried to purchase the new or used to be a vehicle lately? I can’t say I have, but my dad just bought a used car and it apparently was not an easy or inexpensive process. The used car market in Canada has been booming since the onset of COVID-19. Prices have gone up. Supply chain issues dampened new vehicle availability. Add to that a shortage of parts and chips around the globe, and you’re looking at a rough ride. If you’re planning to buy a car in the next little while. This is disruptors, The ten minute take where we dive into the latest innovation, tech and economic buzz. This week’s take is on the automotive market in Canada. What does the landscape look like amid these global challenges, and how are tech platforms helping consumers with the buying and selling process? To offer his insights. We’re joined by Cody Green, founder and CEO of Canada Drives dot ca, the country’s largest 100% online car shopping and to your door delivery platform. Cody, welcome to the ten minute take. Speaker 2 [00:01:06] Thanks for having me. Speaker 1 [00:01:07] So we’ve been seeing supply chain woes and chip shortages affect the vehicle market for a while now. But what are the biggest issues that Canadians who are looking to buy or sell? What are they grappling with these days? Speaker 2 [00:01:19] The biggest issue is we’re still just not making as many new vehicles as Canadians want. So recent numbers. May 2022, we had 140,000 new vehicles sold, which sounds like a lot, except when you compare it to 200,000 that we had in 2019. So roughly 70% of the output that we used to have. New vehicle prices are going up. So there’s a few things at play here. There’s a definite rise at the cost of the inputs. Those manufacturing bottlenecks that you referenced and really just this supply and demand imbalance. And when manufacturers have the limited capacity, they’re going to be focusing on those more expensive models, those more expensive trims. So you see that on that new car side. If you’ve walked into a dealership hoping to leave with a new car, you may find that you’re waiting three months, six months or longer. They might just say, you know what? I don’t even know if I’ll be able to get you this model. Good luck next year. And that and that really just sort of flows over to the used vehicles because used vehicles are really a reflection of new vehicle pricing. And so what we saw last year as those new vehicle prices went up, the used vehicle prices sort of rose along with them. At this point, it’s relatively stable. We’re not seeing big swings either way, but there’s just less vehicles out there and so makes it a bit more challenging for shopping. Speaker 1 [00:02:45] Are you seeing any particular types or makes or models of vehicles that are most affected or is it kind of uniform across the board? Speaker 2 [00:02:51] It’s really across the board. I think recently and this has been exasperated by our fuel prices shooting up and staying up. Getting your hands on a new EV or a hybrid vehicle. That’s definitely challenging. And Tesla is a good example. Like those ones, you take a long time, you put in your deposit and then you just sit and wait and hope. Speaker 1 [00:03:13] Let’s actually let’s stay on EVs for a second there, on our show we’re very interested in the transition to a net zero economy, and EVs are a huge part of that. But as you said, you know, prices are going up, wait times are super high. But I read that you mentioned in another interview that monthly searches for EVs on Canada drives have doubled between January and June. Are those searches translating into sales? Speaker 2 [00:03:36] They definitely are. We have to have the vehicle for someone in order to actually purchase it from us. So a big focus for our team is making sure that we’re sourcing quality used vehicles that Canadians wants. And Canadians definitely want electric vehicles right now. And what we’re really seeing is there is this tight correlation on our platform for those searches of electric vehicles. Along with those fuel prices. We see this overall demand just is growing. But when fuel jumps by 30% in a month, we see it almost 1 to 1 with the searches on our platform. Speaker 1 [00:04:13] That’s wild. My partner and I, we got an electric vehicle fall of 2020. So we feel very lucky that we got in just before all this craziness. But let’s talk about your platform for a moment and generally how you think about the customer experience of buying or selling a vehicle. How does Canada drive enable car buyers and sellers in this particular environment, especially in contrast to the dealership model? Speaker 2 [00:04:38] One of the challenges that people have right now is actually understanding what vehicles are available. So that’s one of the things that we kind of answer for customers right off the top. You go on our platform, you can see this vehicle is here today, you can buy it. This vehicle’s coming soon or there’s potentially a sale pending on it so you can get notified of. Someone changes their mind, but you actually have a good understanding. If I want a car, I can buy this car. The experience for the customer. We really try to take the best parts of buying a car and put them online and then take away all the things that people don’t love about shopping for a car. So some of those things are time and convenience. So going into a dealership, spending multiple hours and this is an hour’s really discovering if it’s the right car, it’s a lot of time just waiting, whether it’s waiting to do the test drive, waiting to figure out the price, waiting to figure out the financing. You’re getting a 50 minute test drive. That’s where the actual discovery of the product is on our platform. Everything’s available for you. So no haggle pricing. If you need financing, we’re going to facilitate that. It’s going to be all there. It’s going to be transparent. This is the rate. This is the payment. The control is all the way back to the consumer. So if you don’t like the offer we have for the financing, you don’t like the price of the vehicle, you close your browser, you’re not captive to the shopping experience. The other big part of it, too, is people have gotten used to buying everything online and really vehicles were sort of that next step. Tesla pioneered it with that direct to consumer for the new vehicles. They had to have the single pricing, no negotiation dropped off at your door. People loved it. They didn’t miss that part of the shopping experience. Same thing with Canada drives. When you say, yes, I want to purchase, it’s going to be dropped off at your door. And the biggest thing that people said like, well, if I’m buying a car online, what if I don’t like it because it’s a big purchase and totally empathize people with that? We have a seven day leave it to return it guarantee, drive it for seven days, take it to work, drop your kids off at school. If there’s anything you don’t like about her, maybe it’s just the color you like. I want a different blue. We’re going to come pick that vehicle up. And so we really say that this is superior to the standard 15 minute test drive, and that’s been the sentiment we’ve been hearing from customers to that. Speaker 1 [00:07:00] So while that goes against all of the orthodox of, oh, you know, the moment you buy a car and drive it off the lot, it loses 30% of its value. And here you are like, actually, I can return it after seven days. So that’s a crazy look. Mind shift to. Speaker 2 [00:07:13] Me. Yeah, it’s something people really love and they’re like, Really? They’ll do that. Yeah. Speaker 1 [00:07:17] Yeah. So it’s a great time to sell your vehicle if you’re looking to sell it. Actually, if we want to sell our car today, we could sell it for more than we bought it. And that’s the thing, the same from a lot of folks. But what advice would you have for people who are looking to buy right now and feeling, you know, overwhelmed and frustrated with the high costs and low inventory? Speaker 2 [00:07:35] I don’t think and myself as a driver of cars as well as the seller of cars, I can’t really say there’s a crystal ball like prices aren’t going to fall off. I don’t think that’s what anybody’s saying. So if you need a vehicle, you need to buy a vehicle. If you’re trading in a vehicle, as you said, you’re going to get top dollar for that trade in vehicle as well. And so it’s really about doing your research and making sure that you’re getting a vehicle that fits for your lifestyle. Because the only way that it doesn’t really work out is if you’re having to switch cars every couple months and sort of that friction there, but buy one of the vehicles, see if it works for your life. If it does, awesome, if not, return it. And it’s probably worth touching on too, because on our platform you don’t need to be a buyer of a vehicle to sell us a vehicle. So something that’s been really popular is you can go and can drive, so you can input the information of your current vehicle, the kilometers, the condition you’re going to get an instant online quote. You can say, yeah, I want to accept this and we’re going to come pick up your vehicle and transfer money to your account. And this is awesome, especially for families that said, hey, we needed three cars. Now two’s fine. Or maybe we’re at two, we need one. So it’s just a really good opportunity to have that information. Even if you’re choosing to buy a vehicle from somebody else, you know, hey, can you drives will pay me this for the car. Speaker 1 [00:08:55] Cody As we wrap up, looking at all the flux in the market and projected shortages going into next year, possibly the year after, how do you see business models for car purchasing sales changing for the future? And what’s the role of technology as we move forward. Speaker 2 [00:09:11] The next decade and even the next year or two? I think it’s going to be really exciting for car shoppers. Platforms like ours really force everyone to take notice. If people want to transact this way, well, everyone’s got to say, okay, well, am I going to lose out on those customers? Are we going to make some adjustments? What we really see is technology taking a lot of the friction out of there, bringing transparency, allowing people to trade in their cars more easily, not spend that time. And I think it’s going to be a win for all consumers. Speaker 1 [00:09:40] That’s a really good note to end on. Thanks so much for being on the 10 minute take, Cody. Speaker 2 [00:09:43] Hey, thanks for having me. Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:09:46] So, as we heard from Cody, the vehicle market is going through a transformational phase right now fueled by high demand, high gas prices, and Canadians desire for cleaner transportation and with global shortages, not really showing any signs. Signs of lessening. Canadians can probably expect to wait a little while longer for that new car smell. That’s it for this week’s ten minute take. Join us again next week for another ten minute take on carbon offsets. What are they and what should Canadians know before purchasing them? Until then, I’m Teresa Do. Talk to you soon. Speaker 3 [00:10:20] Disruptors, The ten minute take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our RBC dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hey, it’s Theresa. You know, one of the major challenges we have in this country is figuring out ways to unlock our full economic potential, while at the same time ensuring that this prosperity is sustainable. Last fall, RBC released a report called The $2 Trillion Transition. It talked about the generational challenge of climate change and how Canada will need to bring together financial firepower, smart infrastructure, and a whole lot of innovation and ingenuity to power the green transition. But to find those new paths to net zero emissions, we need a new map for economic development and how these big investments are made. An indigenous capital is key to getting us there. That’s the focus of a new report just released by RBC Economics and Thought Leadership. It’s called 92 to 0 How Economic Reconciliation Can Power Canada’s Climate Goals. Financing and access to financing has been a huge stumbling block for many indigenous peoples wanting to develop within their territories. We’re going to talk a lot about that with our guests today. But the concept of indigenous capital is about much more than money. It’s about a holistic approach to development and looking at the full wealth of resources that should be involved natural capital, land, water, air as critical, of course, as the development of more green infrastructure depends on consent before accessing indigenous territories. So too is incorporating indigenous values and traditional knowledge in the green transition, and that’s called intellectual or also cultural capital. But none of this is possible without people. Human capital will be the foundational piece, as we need to empower the next generation of indigenous leaders and entrepreneurs to fuel the screen transition. Indigenous youth are the fastest growing youth cohort in this country, and business ownership is increasing at nine times the rate of non-Indigenous ownership. We have a real opportunity to build up Indigenous skills that will be required for major projects. Indigenous communities must have a say and a share in development. Only by truly embracing their leadership and wisdom do we have a fighting chance to find that path to net zero. This is Disruptors and RBC podcast. I’m Trinh Theresa Do. In this episode of Disruptors, we’re looking at the vital role indigenous communities can play in our net zero transition and to help us build a new model for development. After the break, we’ll meet an indigenous leader who is balancing economic prosperity and environmental stewardship. In doing so, she’s creating opportunities not just for her people, but for indigenous communities across Canada. But first, we’re going to dove into the challenges facing indigenous communities that want to control their own economic destiny and do so in a way that encourages sustainable prosperity for all Canadians. The need for a new approach is obvious, and that’s what motivated a group of 25 indigenous organizations to develop its National Indigenous Economic Strategy for Canada, which was released in June. We talked with one of the Indigenous leaders who helped draft the strategy. Speaker 2 [00:03:27] I’m with Bobby Leach and I am the general manager of the Agritech Business Development Corporation, as well as the Chair of the National Indigenous Economic Development Board. One of the things that our National Board worked on was the first ever OECD report on Indigenous economic development. They did the global report and three country reports. One country was Canada. And so in the Canada Country Report, it was released in January 2020. That report recommended that Canada needs a national indigenous economic strategy. We’ve gone through exercises in the past where the governments put together a national indigenous economic strategy. And after many rounds of meetings with our people and practitioners, get a strategy that did not reflect anything that we said. So we said, this time we’re going to hold the pan in developing this strategy, because even to this day, people ask, what is it that you want anyway? What do you what do you want to accomplish? So we decided to put together this road map. And what’s needed to actually achieve economic reconciliation in this country. We felt that it was really important that we develop that we hold a plan that is structured around four strategic pillars of people, lands, infrastructure and finance. So these are the critical areas that involve the collaboration of more than 25 national indigenous organizations for the first time working together on one initiative like this. By developing this strategy, we’re showing other indigenous peoples around the world that they should also take hold of the narrative. They should be the ones coming up with the solutions that will best address their needs. That you can’t have external governments doing this for you. When indigenous people are engaged, the whole country benefits. We know it’s been proven time and again that when indigenous communities prosper, so do the regions around them. Speaker 1 [00:05:30] This new indigenous economic strategy could boost Canada’s economy by $30 billion. It could also reduce poverty among indigenous meeting and Inuit communities, creating more than 100,000 jobs that can generate $7 billion in employment income. And these are important recommendations focused on harnessing the skills of indigenous peoples and tapping into their environmental stewardship. The need for a new approach looking at economic and financial strategies through an indigenous lens is also what motivated that new RBC Economics and thought leadership report we mentioned off the top. And to chat a bit about it, I’d like to welcome my colleague Cynthia Leech, who’s the report’s lead author. Cynthia is an assistant chief economist here at RBC and helps shape the narratives and a research agenda around our team’s economic and policy analyzes. She consulted with indigenous leaders and organizations across the country over the past several months to glean their insights and perspectives. Speaker 2 [00:06:26] For the report. Speaker 1 [00:06:27] Cynthia, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:06:28] Thanks for having me, Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:06:30] Let’s start with a simple question or a seemingly simple question. Why did we create this report now? Why is this focus on capital and a new way of looking at capital so important? Speaker 2 [00:06:42] Well, we’re all talking about what’s needed for the net zero transition. And a lot of those conversations has focused on the money or the $2 trillion in investment Canada needs between now and 2050 for net zero. But that’s really only a narrow slice of what’s needed. We’re also going to need to build a lot of infrastructure so access to natural capital and we’ll need a whole lot of innovation. So access to intellectual and human capital. And when you think about it in that more complete sense, it’s clear that indigenous peoples in Canada are key sources of that capital and so will be essential to shaping our collective journey to net zero. Speaker 1 [00:07:21] I’ve been slowly reading a book reading Sweetgrass over the last several months, and the author, Robin Wall Kimmerer, describes the act of braiding as showing loving care to Mother Earth, as well as kindness and reciprocity between the people doing the breeding. And this is a concept that you include in the report. Can you share why you decided to include it and why breeding is important? When we talk about indigenous capital. Speaker 2 [00:07:45] Absolutely. I’ve come to I’ve come to learn that for indigenous peoples, breeding is a sacred act. It’s bringing together disparate things that together are a lot stronger. And it to me was an incredible metaphor for what we discovered on indigenous capital that to achieve net zero, we need to bring together these strands of indigenous capital and non-Indigenous capital for the transition. So natural capital, financial capital, intellectual capital and human capital. And the way we do that, the way we bind it together is through true and deep partnerships. And that means recognition of Indigenous rights, perspectives, decision making. Speaker 1 [00:08:22] I think that is such a beautiful visual and really accessible. Too far to, as you said, underline the importance of the partnerships among us and a natural capital. As you mentioned, it’s all about land, water, the air that runs through indigenous territories. And getting access to those natural resources will be critical as we make the net zero transition, especially in building out renewable energy infrastructure. But these sorts of developments are complex and not without controversy. So how do we navigate the thorny questions surrounding development on indigenous lands and ensure a meaningful engagement and informed consent? Speaker 2 [00:08:59] Well, first of all, let’s just recognize the way in which our clean energy development will overlap with indigenous rights and territories. We did some analysis and found that at least 56% of the $60 billion in new critical mineral advanced projects would involve indigenous lands. And when we looked at the solar and wind resources needed for Canada’s renewables build out, about 35% of the top solar sites are near Indigenous lands and 44% of the better wind sites. And these are bottom estimates that there’s going to be a lot of other indigenous rights implicated in Canada’s infrastructure development, and so engaging with Indigenous communities is absolutely needed. The challenge has been that over the last couple decades or more, as there’s been increasing legal recognition of indigenous rights and the need to consult Indigenous peoples, that consultation and engagement hasn’t been done in a meaningful enough way. Too often, project proponents and others have essentially sought kind of check box agreement on already planned projects that didn’t integrate indigenous perspectives and priorities from an earlier stage. And that’s absolutely going to have to change. For one, the legal framework is strengthening, and there’s the implementation coming of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People and other factors that are moving us closer to meeting Indigenous consent. The challenge is consent to the legal concept and we need a practical definition of what that means. In Canada, we know it’s more so a process of meaningful engagement, of incorporating indigenous perspectives and priorities and decision making of Indigenous rights holders. We know it involves early engagement and meaningful incorporation of Indigenous perspectives and decisions of Indigenous rights holders. But we’re still defining what true partnership looks like. Speaker 1 [00:11:01] And a big part of that, too, is access to financing. And of all the types of capital that. Speaker 2 [00:11:06] You. Speaker 1 [00:11:06] Explore in the piece, that has to probably be one of the toughest nuts to crack. So how do we need to think differently about that and project partnerships with indigenous communities? Speaker 2 [00:11:17] So one thing that’s happening in terms of rewriting what partnership and co-development looks like is increasingly indigenous communities are looking for equity ownership and project development, and this is for Indigenous communities who are looking for durable benefits and wealth building opportunities that can outlive the lifespan of the project. And it’s also in the interest, often a project sponsors because it represents a true engagement and partnership reflective of the value that indigenous peoples bring to the table and ultimately de-risk the projects by these communities participation through equity ownership. These structures are becoming increasingly common. What’s been challenging, though, is there’s an equity financing gap for some communities where equity needs to be contributed and communities without resources that they can leverage to get private financing. There’s an equity financing gap and possibility that they missed out on equity ownership. And of course, this relates to long standing challenges for First Nations and other indigenous communities to obtain private financing. Given the challenges under the Indian Act and other vagaries of indigenous rights that have prevented indigenous communities and individuals from accessing capital. And so it’s a challenge that needs to be addressed as we move forward with productive partnership and infrastructure development. Speaker 1 [00:12:42] Those are excellent insights. Cynthia, thank you so much for your time and thanks for joining Disruptors. Coming up after the break, we’ll talk to an indigenous leader who is working to build a new model for major project development in Canada. So stay right there. What you’re listening to Disruptors and RBC Podcast. I’m Theresa Dome. I want to let you know about a new weekly report from RBC Economics. It’s called Proof Point, and it provides original, timely economic insights from RBC Economics and Thought Leadership Team. Find out why demand for cash is at its highest level in 60 years, despite a broad shift. E-commerce. Or learn why Atlantic Canada has become a magnet for new residents. To explore more, visit RBC AECOM Thought Leadership. Welcome back. On today’s show, we’re exploring all the forms of indigenous capital we’ll need to bring sustainable prosperity to Canada. But to fully leverage that capital will also need to challenge some ingrained attitudes about Indigenous communities. As Mark Putt, lastly, director of economic policy at the First Nations Major Project Coalition told us in a recent episode of Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:14:00] We are from the capital, which is in Central Interior, British Columbia, South Central B.C.. My community has a revenue sharing deal with a mining company in our territory. And when we started to set that up, we did some research to find out how much indigenous capital is there in Canada. And we found just back of the envelope calculations at that time, about $8 billion of assets under management by Indigenous people. And it’s not in one spot. It’s different settlements from either land treaties from negotiations with mining companies or energy companies. We figure now that somewhere between 13 and 18 billion my nation has a fund right now of about 50 million. And we have the ability and the fund to make direct placements into investments that that will grow that fund. Most of these nations do. So the capital is there. The question, though, is that how can indigenous people directly invest in these projects? I think for a lot of the financial sector, they don’t see us as Indigenous investors. The idea of being an indigenous investor seems to be an oxymoron to some of these companies who come into territories and don’t think of Indigenous people in that sense. That has to change. Speaker 1 [00:15:11] Our next guest is intimately familiar with the obstacles faced by Indigenous communities seeking a meaningful stake in Canada’s economic prosperity. Chief Charlene Vale has been an elected councilor of the 811 member Fort Nelson First Nation since 2009, governing a territory in north eastern B.C., roughly the size of Switzerland. She started her career at West Coast Energy, a subsidiary of Enbridge, and brings her unique perspective on how the natural resources sector can work collaboratively with indigenous groups to her role as Chair of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition. Chief Gayle, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:15:48] Hi. It’s a real pleasure to be here on your podcast. Thanks for having me today. Speaker 1 [00:15:52] Thank you. Off the top of the segment, we heard a clip from Mark Hurd. Lastly, a colleague of yours at the First Nations Major Projects Coalition. So, Chief Gayle, the question I have for you is twofold. Do you agree with Mark’s assessment that the industry struggles to see indigenous groups as, quote, investors? And if so, what needs to be done to change those attitudes? Speaker 3 [00:16:12] So in my eyes, there’s still an outdated view on some industry players that view indigenous groups more like a call center on projects, and that we’re still a risk to be mitigated with cash buyouts and other tactics. Sometimes when I look at this, I call it the feeds and blankets approach, and I think there’s a number of people in corporate Canada that are waking up to what I’ve known all along, that indigenous partnerships definitely adds value. Partnering with us increases the long term profitability of a project. It also raises ESG ratings and de-risk investment from unresolved indigenous interests. Another thing that I’ve also noticed is that media has also drawn attention to indigenous conflict on major projects rather than focusing on some of the success stories. Majority of the time. So I know that there are a few media types that are trying to change that. And we’re aware that due to the lack of interaction between the financial sector and indigenous groups on an investment screen basis that media reports are often relied upon and influence the decision making that happens in Canada. I believe that that’s a problem and the First Nation Major Projects Coalition is really trying to solve that. At a recent conference in April, I know that there was a number of industry types that were blown away by how we want to do business by our membership and how our members were more commercially focused. And so we want to get that message out there that our members are interested in partnering on smart development, one that respects their interests and their community interests. And we understand that partnership is also a two way street. I believe the First Asia major project has an important role to play in in hosting this dialog. And I know the more we’re able to do deals that have true indigenous partnership, the more we’re going to change minds from outdated ways of thinking about Indigenous groups as financial partners. Speaker 1[00:18:07] Getting to true partnership also means breaking down some of the systemic barriers to that partnership. And you’ve said in the past about development that, quote, if the bottleneck is access to capital, that the solution is to change the financing system in Canada. Could you share more about what do you mean by that and what exactly do we need to change in our financing system to ensure true partnership? Speaker 3 [00:18:29] Well, there’s currently two things that the Coalition is working on and we’re trying to improve access to competitive capital for Indigenous investment in major projects. And we’re also trying to improve the business readiness to our Member First Nations to take part in opportunities within their territory on improving access to competitive capital. This isn’t just a government problem. It’s a problem that has been borne by all of us. The indigenous communities, the private sector and government all have a role to play for government. I really see this as an opportunity for the federal government to follow the lead of some of the provinces like Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan who have established government backed financing support such as the National Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program. Many of our communities don’t have the level of risk capital it takes to get capital markets to provide interest rates at equity style loans. That makes sense. In one case, we experience the internal rate of return of the project was going to be 9% and the cheapest loan we could source was between 12 and 15%. So it just didn’t make sense. And so this caused our members to leave an opportunity at the table that would have provided revenue streams to invest in their in their nations. They could have built homes, they could have paved roads, provide more programs and services that the federal funding that we do receive doesn’t meet the needs of our nations. While we are asking the government to consider loan guarantees, direct financing, support and increase investment in our ability to make informed decision. There’s also a role for the private sector. Indigenous communities offer solid partnership with the private sector. Or I’m doing it in my own community and I see how successful it is just sitting down, having a conversation with my business partner and then bringing the information to the community. I’m learning a lot in my role as chief for my community and chair of the first Asian major projects. And we need to know what to do to start structuring these deals with the private sector and to address this. The coalition created a capital markets 1 to 1 series for our members, and this series is to inform our own lived experiences, negotiating deals as well as providing professional advice. So when we talk about building our own readiness for business and capacity to take on deals at the community level, this is an example of that. Speaker 1[00:20:53] Mm hmm. Yeah, it sounds like it requires a multi-sector approach. I’d like to take the conversation home a little bit and talk about your community. The Fort Nelson First Nation sits in the heart of BC’s oil and gas country. And you’ve talked in the past about how the fracking controversy in the early 2000 was in part what motivated you to get involved in leadership in 2009 and to try to seek a new partnership model with industry and government? Can you talk a little bit about that history in Fort Nelson? Speaker 3 [00:21:21] So I actually started out myself in the oil and gas sector after I graduated high school and I worked at the Fort Nelson gas plant for about 20 years. Oil and gas in our community has, you know, seen many successes in terms of the value of procurement contracts and royalties and open source revenue and equity positions that, you know, we want to make come alive with the new developments that are happening for clean energy projects. We know that this relationship hasn’t always been perfect and the resource boom that happened in 2013, 2014, at least in the state territory, created a lot of land use changes and it impacted on our rights and our way of life. Yes, it brought some jobs and money, but it also brought a lot of racism and division in the communities in the north and it really tax. Starliner members were seeing the vast changes in a short period of time and they were bringing those concerns to our council and to our lands office. And oil and gas also contributed to the industrial activities that harmed our lands and water, and we refer to it as cumulative impacts. And while I believe no one sector was responsible in isolation for all of this, the extensive industrial development that the province of BC approved from oil and gas, forestry, mining, agriculture and other activities altogether over several decades. It has breached treaty and we’ve seen those impacts on the land. It also harmed our ability to exercise our Aboriginal treaty rights and this was confirmed in the High Court case, which some of you may know better as a Blueberry River case. And this has been documented and the judge said we had been ignored. And with this, we’re here as a nation focused on solutions, on a better way forward, as first nations were also diversifying into clean energy development and new energy sources beyond the traditional oil and gas sector. For an example, you know, with Fort Nelson First Nation being the three biggest gas players with the Horn River, the Iliad and the Cordova. It turns out that what makes good gas plays is also really promising for geothermal. And so our community is extremely proud of the two de coeur geothermal project that my nation, the Fort Nelson First Nation, is 100% owner of. And this will be the first fully indigenous owned geothermal project in Canada. We’re looking at it being about a $91 million project with seven megawatts of electricity generation that will provide energy to equivalent of 14,000 homes. And if you come to Fort Nelson, you know, we don’t have 14,000 homes. So there’s a real potential to not only provide power to the city, to the industrial site, the LNG sites, Alberta into the future. And the project is only five kilometers from our reserve. And it’s phenomenal to think that we repurposed an old gas well to supply clean, renewable baseload energy to the B.C. grid. So this is a path forward for oil and gas workers like me to lead the transition and not be left behind if it. I don’t think that we should be scared to get involved in renewable projects. Speaker 1 [00:24:40] I’d like to dig into the geothermal development for just a second. Are there any specific lessons and insights that you’ve learned so far through that process that you can share with other communities? Speaker 3 [00:24:51] So I think it’s really important that people do realize that there’s an energy transition happening. And other than governments and municipalities, indigenous nations are leading this transition. We have a lot of renewable projects, whether that’s solar, geothermal, mining, biomass, you name it. It’s happening in our communities and we’re getting involved more and more. So that makes me really proud. I also think it’s really important that these projects, they don’t happen overnight. I mean, we started this process with the geothermal project back in 2007 and I just the concept talking about it and then the world started changing and we started talking about net zero by 2050. And there was more opportunities coming from, you know, federal and provincial governments in regards to grants where communities could apply for. And that’s what really made this project become a reality, is we received a $40 million grant from the federal government and we were able to start the planning and looking at is this project feasible and really working with our community to identify solutions when we meet challenges. And [00:26:04[15.4s] that we know there is a better path for first nations and Canadians to work together towards these projects. Speaker 1 [00:26:28] Now, there’s a lot of exciting momentum, as you’ve described. And what a possibility for the future. Hoping to ask you a personal question, if you don’t mind, Chief Gayle, what and what inspires you each day as a leader and in your role as does chief? Speaker 3 [00:26:42] So what inspires me is my people and their hope and their vision. And it’s just amazing to see how much we’ve grown over the decades with good leadership and strong vision. Our people are really resilient. You know, I’ve seen them overcome many challenges and anything that we do as a people. Speaker 2 [00:27:04] We. Speaker 3 [00:27:05] Look forward to making decisions for seven generations. We don’t just think of the now, and that’s kind of why I like this geothermal project is for the fact that the Clarke Lake provided for our nation over seven decades and we had a railway going through and all this activity that was happening so fast back in the day. And our people stood up and said, No, not without us. And if they didn’t stand up and say, not without us, we wouldn’t be where we are today with the investments that we have to look after our people. So I’m very proud of that. Speaker 1 [00:27:43] Chief Gayle, you mentioned earlier that there are a lot of lessons that you have that you can share not only with other communities in Canada, but also around the world. And I wanted to dove into that a little bit more. In April, the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, along with your American counterparts, the First Peoples Worldwide, hosted a conference in Vancouver. The focus was on indigenous leadership and opportunities in the net zero transition, with over a thousand delegates in attendance. So what does Canada have to teach the world in finding collaborative approaches to a net zero transition? And perhaps what can we learn from others? Speaker 3 [00:28:18] Well, I think collaboration with indigenous nations across North America and globally is important moving forward towards a net zero future. I envision Indigenous communities working together across the globe to lead this race to net zero. I mentioned earlier we can deploy our knowledge. We have a diversity of values, perspectives to develop real solutions that benefit our communities. Also because we’re not going anywhere. People might pick up theirfamilies and pack up their homes for job opportunities. But our people are going to be living here for thousands of years. And that’s why it’s important. We’re still a part of these projects and we have opportunities living in our territories. So the work of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition is always creating dialog on net zero on indigenous groups in the U.S., in Canada, New Zealand and other places. Some of the challenges that other indigenous communities have in different countries is the same. So I think through these partnerships were able to bring in a number of U.S. tribes, each with tremendous resilience and stories of success, of developing new clean projects and other net zero projects for their communities. And in April, we also hosted the Mallory from New Zealand, who also came to my community because they have 30 years plus experience in geothermal. Are there lessons and their wisdoms and their experiences with my people? All of the people and members of the coalition and it’s clean energy projects like that, like the geothermal that we’re finding ways to meaningfully include indigenous values and investment standards. What an incredible story. And it just gave my people so much hope that we can do this. The Mallory have been doing this for 30 years, sharing best practices of Indigenous leadership and net zero projects across North America or New Zealand or globally. It can help inspire change. Speaker 1 [00:30:08] That’s an incredibly uplifting and hopeful note. And UN chief David, thank you so much for your time and for joining disruptors today. Speaker 3 [00:30:14] Well, thank you for having me. Greatly appreciated. Speaker 1 [00:30:17] Well, there’s so much to think about there. I’m struck by a number of things from my conversation with Chief Gale. Firstly, that capital is not a monolithic thing. It’s not all about dollars and cents. And yes, I know it might be a little bit funny coming from an RBC podcast. But capital requires understanding where we come from and the unique perspectives of our ancestors, or in the case of indigenous people and communities their elders. Indigenous partnership is not a checkmark. It’s not something that is slapped on in the middle or at the end of a project and requires proactive engagement at the start. To be able to tap into millennia of traditional knowledge and ways of living. And we all benefit when this is the case. As Dawn Madahbee Leach said, when indigenous communities prosper, so do the regions around them. Well, that is all for now. Thanks to our guests, Cynthia Leach and Chief Sharlene Gale, as well as Mark Podlasly next week, join us for the latest tech and Innovation Buzz with our ten minute tech series. Until then, I’m Theresa Do and this is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 2 [00:31:32] Disruptors, an RBC Podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by JAR Audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hi. It’s John here. Speaker 2 [00:00:04] And it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:05] Hey, Theresa. I don’t think I can remember a year like this for agriculture. I mean, we all know as food consumers what’s happening with prices out there, but pity the farmer because they also have to deal with sky high fertilizer prices and energy prices and weather conditions that have been just crazy this year in different parts of the country. Speaker 2 [00:00:27] You’re so right, John. Agricultural necessities like diesel, fertilizer, potash, herbicides are up 170%, nearly triple from a year ago. The latest provincial outlook from RBC Economics reported that the impact of droughts on crop production was so severe that Saskatchewan actually saw a decline in real GDP last year. Speaker 1 [00:00:47] The outlook, believe it or not, is luckily a much more positive, strong global demand and prices for commodities are significantly boosting our agriculture prospects. And if the weather cooperates, very provinces stand to report significant production, and technology can make it even better this year and in the decades to come. Speaker 2 [00:01:11] This is disruptors, the ten minute take, where we dive into the latest innovation, tech and economic buzz. This week’s take is on how all of these challenges are affecting the 2022 growing season in Canada and what solutions are available to support Canadian farmers. How can agriculture technology or AGTECH help increase yields? Speaker 1 [00:01:31] To offer some insights, we’re joined by Wade Barnes, founder and former CEO of Farmers Edge, a Manitoba-based Agtech company and a farmer himself. Farmers Edge develops data driven technologies that help farmers run efficient operations while producing more food. Wade, welcome to the ten minute take. Speaker 3 [00:01:49] Hey, I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Speaker 1 [00:01:51] It’s great to have you on the pod, Wade. And I want to start off with what’s happening in the ag sector. You’re a farmer, so you know this firsthand. But as we enter peak planting and growing season, we’re seeing Alberta experiencing drought like conditions, and Saskatchewan has the opposite, with heavy rain delaying planting season by a couple of weeks. I think that’s happened on your family farm as well. What are you seeing this year across the industry that’s most concerning to you? Speaker 3 [00:02:15] Well, to your point, it’s really a mixed bag. There’s certain areas of western Canada that continues to be in a drought situation. And I think you’re getting to a very critical stage. Without some moisture, you’re going to see some farms get really affected around their yields. And then you’ve got these issues, you know, in eastern Saskatchewan, in Manitoba, where we’ve just had so much snow that turn into so much rain, that turn into really cold conditions. And there’s been, you know, really late planting and more rain on the way. And there’s going to be fields that don’t get planted this year. Speaker 2 [00:02:46] And so with all of these mixed conditions and the fact that farmers are facing super high input costs that we mentioned on the other side of the coin are also seeing very high prices for commodities, wheat up 67%, canola, corn. How is the math, the economics working out for farmers bottom lines? Speaker 3 [00:03:03] Well, look, I mean, I’m a farmer and the math still works out pretty well. You know, when you think about even with the cost of fertilizer up, the commodity prices are so strong. Now, that’s really dependent on are you going to get a good crop? And I think that the environment around agriculture, you know, there’s an ability for farmers to be super profitable, but the risk has never been higher. And so when you think about it with a grower as suddenly now your commodity prices are, you know, can almost $23 a bushel. Typically, we count on $10 a bushel. And with these really high fertilizer prices, if I get a decent crop, I’m going to do really well. But the risk now that if I don’t, that’s scary. And I think that farmers need tools to help manage their risk more so now than ever. Speaker 1 [00:03:47] And a lot of this way comes back to the human component of farming. But in a technology driven era and a data driven era, we’ve done a lot of work on this out of our Farmer 4.0 Report a few years ago, and so much has changed since then. Curious how technology is accelerating in the sector given all these constraints, including labor, which everyone’s up against, but farmers particularly are having trouble getting people on the land. Where does technology come into play here? Speaker 3 [00:04:19] Well, I think now you’re going to see farmers start to think about the adoption of technology more than they ever have. And I’ll just give you an example. You know, in these wet areas of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, last fall, we were facing a drought dry as we’ve seen in years and years. And so when you think about farmers and risk management, they have to make a huge decision how much fertilizer am I going to put on? What crops am I going to grow? And with these really huge increase in fertilizer costs, suddenly now technologies like sensors gives farmers a bit of an insight of what their potential yields are going to be. And as more moisture comes in, then suddenly they can get more confidence about how much fertilizer they should put on or what type of crops they should grow. And, you know, and I think back to it, not that long ago, we really didn’t think about managing soil moisture the way we do. We didn’t think about managing our nitrogen. And then you think about how that’s connected to sustainability and what’s happening in the carbon space. I mean, farmers are going to need these ag technology tools to help them make these decisions because gut instinct just doesn’t cut it. And it certainly doesn’t cut it right now with record high fertilizer prices. And the other side that you didn’t touch on is that as the commodity prices go up, you know what farmers do? They want to rent more land and it’s driving the cost of land up as well. And so, again, it’s another huge risk driver. So there’s never been a bigger opportunity to do well farming, but there’s never been a scarier time for a grower to deal with all the risks that he’s dealing with. Super stressful. Speaker 2 [00:05:43] So as you chat with your peers, what’s the advice that you’re giving them? What are some of the immediate, tangible things they can do now to help them out in their operations? Speaker 3 [00:05:51] Well, one thing, you know, when you talk about fertilizer placement and applying fertilizer, generally when commodity prices go up, farmers just put more on. But now with the fertilizer prices so high, you have to be really focused about where you’re spending your inputs. And I kind of consider a field, kind of like a hockey team on a hockey team, not everybody gets paid the same. I’m about, you know, in in areas of a field is very similar where there’s good producing areas and weaker producing areas. And I think the farmers now have to be really focused on utilizing technology to get the most efficiency out of their fertilizer or out of all their crop inputs. And look, with all the things that are coming, there’s lots of rumblings about mandated reductions coming. And so these things that farmers need to do isn’t just going to be focused on how to protect their bottom line. They may have to implement technology just to continue farming. That’s the way they are. So there’s lots of interesting challenges coming. Speaker 1 [00:06:47] You’d think that farmers have enough to cope with between the weather and events like an invasion of Ukraine well out of their control. But that changed the economics suddenly in a matter of weeks. Layered on top of that, you mentioned the word mandate. There’s growing pressure on the agriculture sector to do more to reduce emissions, carbon, methane, nitrous oxide, and not clear how that’s going to be done in a fairly short period of time. Wait, I was in southern Alberta recently with farmers both on the livestock and the on the growing side. And the amount of pressure on them, as you were saying, is extraordinary. And yet there are technologies emerging. I mean, there’s so much going on in Agtech right now that there’s an opportunity for farmers to transform themselves. How do they do that in this kind of environment when they’re coping with a weather crisis, a geopolitical crisis that affects their livelihoods, and then the climate crisis that they’re increasingly expected to and perhaps required to do more to help solve. Speaker 3 [00:07:48] Look, I have been in this business now for well over 20 years, and I’ve worked in many different markets the US, Brazil, Eastern Europe, Australia. And the one thing that I do know is that the Western Canadian farmers are super resilient. And to be honest with you, when times get really tough, that’s when the Western Canadian farmer looks for ways to make money differently, to be more efficient. And so I think that even though it’s super tough and super stressful, this is where they’re going to turn to be innovative and they’re going to look for tools to make their lives easier. Now, on the technology side, we have to keep up our end of the bargain from a technology company because we’re we need to put tools out there that the pharmacy benefit from it and they can utilize that. So I think you’re going to see farmers look to adopt technology needs to make sure we’re putting the right products in front of the farmer so they have got something to use. Speaker 1 [00:08:40] That’s a great point for us to wrap up on, Wade. I mean, it’s extraordinary at this point in time that farmers do have the prices now too. If they get it right, invest in these technologies and maybe some incentives because of the high prices of inputs like fertilizer to do things differently and invest in those technologies, they can reduce their inputs and costs. But boy, it’s a risky time, fascinating for so many to watch, but also fraught for many of those on on the front lines who we rely on to get food to our table. Wade, thanks for being on the ten minute takeaway. Speaker 3 [00:09:13] I appreciate it. It was awesome. Speaker 2 [00:09:16] That was a sobering discussion, John. As we saw with last summer’s droughts, weather challenges are only going to become greater as climate change accelerates. But, you know, as Wade pointed out, farmers are resilient, they’re innovative. Even so, we will need all the solutions available, all hands on deck or maybe all holes in the ground to stave off potential future food shortages. Speaker 1 [00:09:38] And what’s encouraging truth is so much of the technology that is emerging in the farm and ag sector is coming from Canadian centers, Calgary or Winnipeg or elsewhere. So this is this is an area where Canada really can lead the world. Speaker 2 [00:09:53] That’s it for this week’s ten minute take. Join us again next week for a look into indigenous capital in this country and the various elements needed to achieve economic reconciliation. Until then, I’m Theresa Do. Speaker 1 [00:10:04] And I’m John Stackhouse. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:10:09] Disruptors, The Ten Minute Take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by JAR audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit RBC dot com slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hi. It’s John here. Speaker 2 [00:00:03] And it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:05] Hey, Theresa. I’m sure you’ve heard all about the delays and issues at Canada’s major airports lately. I flew west this week and the security lines were crazy. Speaker 2 [00:00:14] Yeah, I have been hearing that from all over the place. Last weekend, Amsterdam’s largest airport asked airlines to cancel flights or divert them to other airports because of staff shortages. Passengers, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this to have to queue for hours. It’s being felt all around the globe as more Canadians are traveling for leisure again, they’re facing challenges between COVID screenings and labor shortages. And questions are being raised about whether airlines, airports and the broader travel industry will be able to keep up. Speaker 1 [00:00:44] Yeah, I mean, let’s admit it. These are largely privileged problems, but they’re causing serious disruptions in the economy. We know travel’s back. We’re all eager to get out and enjoy summer. I flew to Vancouver, then to Calgary and back to Toronto in the last week. Really impressed with the way that staff were keeping up with large crowds and a pretty high variability of crowds. But it’s going to be a real bumpy summer if we don’t iron a few things out. The biggest concern for Canada’s travel industry may very well be supply. A historic labor crunch has left the sector short of 177,000 workers. Speaker 2 [00:01:22] A lot of turbulence, you might say. Speaker 1 [00:01:25] This is disruptors. The ten minute take where we dove into the latest innovation, tech and economic buzz. Speaker 2 [00:01:31] This week’s take is on the travel industry’s post-crisis boost. Can the industry keep up with all of this demand? Speaker 1 [00:01:38] Today, we’re joined by Claire Phan, economist at RBC, who just wrote a fascinating proof point piece called Canadians Are Scratching the Travel Rich Again. But can the industry meet demand? Clare. Welcome to the ten minute take. Speaker 3 [00:01:53] Thanks, John. Speaker 1 [00:01:54] Love your report and wonder if we can start with a bit more insight into Canadians travel spending. We know it’s already well above pre-pandemic levels. What more are you seeing? Speaker 3 [00:02:03] So like you said, obviously demand for travel has been incredibly strong. Funding will travel. Spending typically predates actual travel activities because many of us tend to pay for those trips ahead. So. But just by where things are going, where those spendings are going, we can sort of expect a really robust path for recovery, for travel activities later this summer into next year. Speaker 2 [00:02:25] I’m really surprised by those findings. The robust travel ahead, considering that inflation is at an all time high and cost of living has gone up tremendously. What does the data show in terms of who in Canada can actually spend on travel? Speaker 3 [00:02:38] Well, to your point, inflation has definitely been surging and it was due to, you know, extremely elevated demand for goods at the moment, because a lot of these services, including travel, largely just simply wasn’t available for purchases for many of us. But now, you know, with a lot of these activities resuming back to normal, we’re seeing more price increases in airfares. It’s getting more expensive to dine out and to, you know, spend a night at a hotel. These things are all going to be more expensive. So the implications for travel demand were as to what we’re expecting in the near term. We do expect some level of resilience for travel demand, and that’s because Canadian households overall have accumulated a huge stock of savings over the course of the pandemic, and that amounts to roughly $300 billion. And to put that amount into perspective, that’s basically worth more than three times the tourism spending in 2019. So it’s a huge amount of money. And that, combined with just the pent up desire to really go somewhere, is why we’re expecting, you know, at least in the near term, a lot of Canadian households will probably be spending through higher inflation and rising costs. Speaker 1 [00:03:48] Claire I’m sure a lot of people hearing this understand the challenges, but also see this in pretty much every sector, the great resignation is leaving no sector untouched. How is the travel and tourism industry different than other sectors in terms of how labor shortages are impacting? Speaker 3 [00:04:06] So the broader labor shortage issue really is underpinned by aging demographics, and that’s been a challenge that faced by the Canadian economy and many other economies like for many, many years, and that’s largely been expected. What’s different for travel related industry, and that includes accommodation and food services, travel or accommodation that includes, you know, air transport. It’s like many of these jobs are client facing are high contact. And over the past few years, these were particularly the jobs that faced the most turbulence in terms of rising instability and uncertainties as to where their careers could be going. So a lot of workers within these industries actually have switched careers over to other sectors, and it’s going to be really hard to convince them to come back. Speaker 2 [00:04:50] If I just think about my own travel browsing experience in the last a while and seeing lots of deals on flights and hotels as these industries are trying to recover from losses experienced during the pandemic. And yet, as you’ve just mentioned, as we keep hearing these labor shortages, these cost pressures and all this consumer demand driving up prices. So if you scan across the travel tourism industries, can you tell us specifically which parts or subsegments are getting hit hardest in terms of costs and therefore prices? Speaker 3 [00:05:19] Well, from a consumer’s standpoint, as we all know, car rental prices have been going way up year over year. Just in April, the sort of inflation for car rental was around 20%. And that’s eroding a lot of purchasing and spending power on travel just because with more budgets being allocated to renting a car, you might have left to find out other travel related expenses and sort. So but from a business standpoint, inflation has been widespread across all industries, but more particularly these days for food and energy related items. So that from an industry perspective, means things are getting harder for restaurants and for airlines as well, just because of rising food and energy prices, which accounted for half of inflation actually in April. Speaker 1 [00:06:03] Claire, I wonder if you can cast your eyes a few months or several months down the road. Certainly a lot of talk of recession or slowdown or soft landing out there. And I’m curious how that plays out for the sector, because normally travel is something we all tend to fall back on when times are tight. It’s typically a part of what people see as disposable income. Or discretionary spending. And yet having been locked up for a couple of years, probably most people don’t see it as discretionary. They see it as essential. I got to get out of here and enjoy summer and maybe fall while I can. So with these sometimes contradictory forces of play that probably muck with traditional economic models, I’m wondering how you’re thinking about the travel industry going through summer and into fall and which corners may bounce back more than others and which ones may be slower to recover? Speaker 3 [00:06:58] That’s a loaded question right there. How we’re framing it essentially right now is just given where we are in the economic cycle, which is the peak of the peak. So things are heating up. We’re short of labor. Inflation is rising, and that’s particularly true for the goods sector. And that’s why central banks are acting really, really fast. Right now, Bank of Canada just hike interest rate by another 50 basis point. And the whole purpose of that is to tame consumer demand in order to tame inflation. And what does that mean for the travel sector? Well, demand for travel has just been coming back. So we’re not we have not been seeing the same level of inflation for travel services when we’re comparing to goods inflation. So I really like your point about, you know, how many, many households these days probably see travel to some extent with their savings as a discretionary item. And just anecdotally speaking, a lot of my coworkers, including I’m sure you guys as well, and my friends are all like, it’s all it’s on everyone’s agenda, going somewhere near or far this summer. So at least in the near term, again, going back to the point, just like really strong level of pent up demand, a lot of savings, all of those are expected to support activities. But our further in the longer run, there is the question of whether rising inflation and rising interest rates. With that comes rising debt payment activity, whether that’s servicing costs, rising debt servicing costs. And those are all expected to start to hit lower income households first and work their way through higher income households and less in demand in the longer run. So that’s our take on the whole recession earthquake, which I’m sure will not play out as the way we sort of expected. But then as of currently what we’re seeing right now in terms of weaker spots in the travel. So, you know, activities in North America and Europe are quite strong by parts of Asia, including China, are still seeing some like more stringent quarantine and testing requirements. And China pre-pandemic being the largest source of international departure that’s slowing sort of recovery over there is going to drag on global travel recovery into next year as well. And on top of that, this is related to travel, which anecdotally has been coming back more. But overall to leisure travel is still relatively weaker and we could reasonably expect it takes longer for that to come back as well. Speaker 1 [00:09:25] It’s a fascinating story of economic disruption and one that we’re all playing a role in in different, different ways. Claire, thanks for being on the ten minute take. Speaker 3 [00:09:33] It’s such a huge pleasure. Thank you, guys. Speaker 2 [00:09:37] So, John, I have some travel planned for later the summer. And this conversation with Claire is making me think that I’ll have to cut back on every other spending category to be able to afford it. And I mean, it’s wild to me that demand for travel is as high as it is, given everything that’s going on, interest rates and fuel prices and all of the things that we don’t want to hear anymore. Although that makes me think that it makes sense if people want to escape for a little while to just get away from these maddening conditions in our day to day lives. Speaker 1 [00:10:05] Yeah, one assumes this is temporary, but temporary is a kind of an expandable word. This could go on for many, many months, even as the economy slows down, just because there is that pent up demand we want to get out and what better time to travel than summer? So it’s in general a good problem to have, although in specific cases, especially for the operators, a big challenge. Speaker 2 [00:10:28] Well, that is it for this week’s ten minute take. Join us again next week for another episode. Until then, I’m Teresa Do. Speaker 1 [00:10:35] And I’m John Stackhouse. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:10:42] Disruptors, The ten minute take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors, content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hi. It’s John here. Speaker 2 [00:00:02] And it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:04] Hey, Theresa. You know, if we did a word bubble on disrupters, I suspect that the top word would be innovation. It means everything. And some people say it means nothing. Curious what you think of when you hear the word innovation. Speaker 2 [00:00:18] Oh, man, I’ve been thinking a lot about this and I still don’t have a clear answer. But to my mind, I think it’s the systems, the resources processes, the infrastructure that supports novel ideas that improve how we live, how we do business, really everything. It’s about improvement upon existing things. What are your thoughts, John? Speaker 1 [00:00:39] Wow, Teresa, you’re such the tech person. I thought you were going to say Tesla iPhone model off various technologies as being the clichés of innovation. And here you are talking about systems. Yeah, innovations, all of those things and a lot more. I got to serve on the selection committee recently of the Governor General’s Innovation Awards. It was a great half day that I spent with some remarkable Canadians looking at amazing innovators in every sector from every region across the country. It’s the annual celebration of innovations that exemplify excellence and help improve the quality of life in Canada and around the world. And so often we forget that really is the test of innovation. Is it improving the quality of life, whether it’s a phone, a car or the way we run a school or a neighborhood? Speaker 2 [00:01:32] You are so right, John. And even Steve Jobs, you know, going back to that iPhone reference, he’s one of the great tech innovators of our time. He understood that innovation is about more than just the iPhone. And he famously said that it’s what distinguishes between a leader and a follower. The innovator the leader is that bold risk taker who sees a need and risks a new approach. And when that proves successful, it encourages others to follow in that innovator footsteps, opening the door to the possibility of more innovation. And we’ll be exploring and inspiring example of that later on in the show. But the world has changed dramatically in recent years, John, and with it, the need to innovate is changing, too. Speaker 1 [00:02:11] We’re going to need innovation at every turn as we try to come to grips with the fallout from COVID. As we think about the backlash on globalization and how we can continue to make goods in new, more innovative ways that don’t drive up the cost of living for everyone. And we’re going to have to do that in a world of economic and fiscal constraints where perhaps we don’t have the resources that we might have assumed even 12 months ago. And that’s where innovation really proves itself in allowing us all to do more with less and perhaps even leaving less of a footprint on the planet. This is Disruptors. An RBC podcast. I’m John Stackhouse. Speaker 2 [00:03:00] And I’m trying to reset so. In this episode of Disruptors, we’re looking at innovation. What it is, where you find it in the Canadian economy and why it’s so important. After the break, we’ll hear from the two co-founders of a groundbreaking preschool in Nunavut who are bringing innovation to the world of early childhood education. Speaker 1 [00:03:25] But first, our conversation with one of Canada’s leading thinkers on innovation. He’s a professor and author, a former tech entrepreneur and key advisor to the federal government who has some fairly provocative things to say on what this country should be doing to build a more prosperous innovation economy. Dan Breeziness is the Munk Chair of Innovation Studies, Co-Director of the Innovation Policy Lab and Professor of Global Affairs and political science at the University of Toronto. He’s also the Clifford Clark visiting economist at the Department of Finance. And prior to joining U of T in 2013, he co-founded a software startup in his native Israel. In addition to all that, and if all that weren’t enough in March, Dan won the Balsillie Prize for Public Policy from the Writers Trust of Canada for his book Innovation in Real Places Strategies for Prosperity in an Unforgiving World. Dan, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:04:23] Thank you, John. Theresa It’s wonderful to be here. Speaker 1 [00:04:26] It’s great to have you on the podcast and want to jump right into one of the arguments in your book about the difference between innovation and invention. Too many of us confuse or conflate those. I wonder if we can start off with a quick explanation of the difference between innovation and invention and why that’s important. Speaker 3 [00:04:47] Let me move one step even further and then do that. So let’s first ask why innovation is important. And innovation is important because it’s the only way to have sustained economic inhuman wealth for growth, period. That’s it. So if you don’t care about those things, innovation is not important if you’re most human beings. Innovation is critically important. However, innovation is not only invention of new things. So if invention is the act of coming up with a new idea. Innovation is the act of employing those ideas to offer goods, products and services and all across the production stages. So from the coming up with a completely new idea to improving things, to combining them with others, to making them more accessible, all those things. Speaker 2 [00:05:43] When we talk about innovation, often it’s an abstract terms. And so I’m wondering, could you provide an illustration of innovation, why it matters to a company or a country and what’s at stake? Speaker 3 [00:05:54] Let’s start with one example. We are now talking in something that very old technology, which is called Tesla or videoconferencing. If only ten years ago, the three of us would had to do that. We will do everything in our power to make sure in the same room, because otherwise we’ll have to go to special ed rooms, which are unbelievably expensive. And the quality of what we can achieve in those rooms will be horrific. And that’s just ten years ago. And that technology was invented at least 30 years ago. What really happened that completely transformed it right to real innovation is that huge millions of millions of engineering hours in improving processing and improving software algorithm and improving data communication to the fact that when we had COVID, we actually did not need to stop most of what we’re doing, including the education of our kids, because teleconferencing zoom teams, the software we use now was not only good enough, but cheap enough. But we don’t even think about the cost. Speaker 1 [00:07:01] Everything you lay out, Dan has me thinking about the role of government and the fact that government was arguably absent in a lot of that innovation that you just you just specified. Some people feel that innovation actually increases the farther you get away from it from government. And yet here you are in Ottawa at the in the beating heart of government in the Department of Finance. Why did you. Having spent so much of your life trying to understand innovation and being a participant in the innovation economy, want to go into the depths of government to try to tackle it as opposed to doing it from the outside world. Speaker 3 [00:07:42] So, first of all, most people are wrong and in multiple ways. Okay. If you look just at the example that I gave you, we can also talk about things like vaccines and marinade technology on the rest. You will find out that up to 85, probably 90% of the funding and all of our resources, like human beings like me and professor of it, went into developing those technologies. So in the end, somebody can work for two years and make billions on them with government, public money, public people. Not only that, but if you would be in any class on the economics of innovation one on one, one of the first things that they will tell you is that you should expect under free market condition to have less than optimal innovation. And the reason are, I mean, there’s multiple reasons, but to simplify it. Innovation has a huge amount of both risk and uncertainty on. One side and the other without rules. We already mentioned patents. There is no way that if you and I, John, will spend years and all our money to come up with a new innovation, which in the end the just information, unless we state, then make sure that we can make money out of it. Everybody will copy us in a second. So we will have no incentives, no market incentives to actually spend all of time now added to uncertainty. Now add the risk and what you would expect under free market condition, meaning without government is to have very little innovation, if at all. Speaker 2 [00:09:25] That’s strikes me as where we are living in a culture of comfort. Maybe some might use the word complacency. So what do you say to business leaders about how they might be able to move the dial and take on some more of that risk? Speaker 3 [00:09:40] Up until a few years ago, if I was an investor, I would give gold medals to all the Canadian business management because they haven’t managed to give us one of the highest profit margin in the world with one of the lowest risk. The problem is, as a Canadian, it has to our society rather than negative consequences. Median wages, for example, are stuck for 46 years, and the quality of work is much, much, much lower than what they should have. I also think that Canadian managers are first and foremost Canadian. So if they understand what is at stake, if they understand the issue, this is a behavioral problem. And they are also giving other resources. Right, lower risk and lower uncertainty, which the government can do. Until we all figure out how Canadian business can routinized, so innovate all the time, then I think Canadian businesses will actually be very open to that. But when you have a story over 30 years in which you completely disregards what is a main failure, all your recommendation, policy solution, business behavior will take you in the wrong way because you don’t admit what is wrong. Speaker 1 [00:11:00] You mentioned competition and the lack of competition is perhaps one of the inhibitors. And this has been widely discussed and debated over many, many decades in the country. We have regulated industries that have both manufactured and perhaps natural oligopolies. I work for one in the banking sector, but we also have the main airlines transportation, telecommunications at a high variance. I would suggest an innovation between those sectors. How do we ensure we’re getting more innovation in the market structures that we have, which does not have to be directed from government? Does it have to be demanded from consumers or is there some other kind of magic, magic formula? Speaker 3 [00:11:42] So right now we are and what’s, I think technically called a pickle because and you can see it and I know I know you know the statistics for over 20 years, I’ll bear the meaning. Business investment in R&D has gone down and year after year we are now lower than Pilote, which basically means that we are a developing country level. We also look at other things which has a horrible name. TFT Or maybe multi-factor predictive. Basically, apart from telling you how much innovation you have, it tells you how Canadian businesses utilize their human capital. So High TSB is a Toronto Raptors, no matter what kind of players you give them. They excel and they reach a playoff. What most Canadian business look like now is that Toronto Leafs the highest wages in the industry for the lowest results possible. And so first, we need to figure out how we utilize Canadian, because this is now 30 years and businesses are profitable. We should not expect that it will come like manna from the earth. And we definitely do not want, unlike Finland and Israel, to be faced with existential crisis before versus change. So I think there’s two ways public discussion and honest one about what is wrong, which hopefully will also start demands from consumer and then collective action together. And here I would think that public policy has to lead because nobody else will do that. Speaker 2 [00:13:25] To pivot slightly. So you’ve spent many years talking about how Silicon Valley is not necessarily the right model for innovation, and yet a lot of people still look to it. And we can think of Canada’s Supercluster strategy as being very similar in design. You’ve been critical of those high tech hubs for producing unequal levels of prosperity. So how do we build an innovation economy that does benefit the many and not just the few? Speaker 3 [00:13:51] So let’s again go back to, if you remember, invention and innovation, and then let’s at the global system. And I think most people now understand after COVID that what really happened in the last 30 years is the way we, meaning humanity, produce of goods and services have been sliced into different stages. So a way to think about it is that there are at least four stages. We, Silicon Valley, focus on only the first one because it focused on only the first one, which is just R&D. It it’s a model of it does not create jobs for anyone who’s not an R&D engineer and maybe, you know, a venture capitalist and a few celebrity chefs. And when they finish a job, it actually moves to a different place, Korea, Taiwan, China, where they also need to do a huge amount of innovation. But what they do there create a lot of different kinds of jobs. So different skills. If you look about Canada, let’s just assume for a moment where do we really want to be with Silicon Valley, we might have three regions, Greater Toronto and I’m adding Waterloo and Hamilton just for the sake of it, Vancouver and Montreal that might be able to play that game, and it will create unbelievably high inequality. But then there is the rest of Canada. It is not clear to me why the forestry industry of Canada cannot compete with the Finnish one. Pulp and paper also in sophistication. Also in innovating in the equipment. We have a huge country with a huge amount of variance in both the natural goods and skills. Canada, unlike a place like Israel or a small place like Silicon Valley, can actually have different innovation models in different industries in different places. Each one of them focus on a different stage. Speaker 1 [00:15:51] Dan, I wonder if I can ask you about the subtitle in your book, Strategies for Prosperity in an Unforgiving World that was actually from. Only 21. And I think it’s obvious to all of us that the world is even more unforgiving in 2022. How does innovation change in an unforgiving world, and what do Canadians need to really come to grips with to make it work for, for everyone? Speaker 3 [00:16:15] Canadians should start thinking about innovation like hockey. We need to win and easily win and actually create more innovation. We might even help the world. Right? But we need to win. And the other team is very willing to get the few penalties in order to win the Stanley Cup. If we are not willing to inflict a few penalties at the right time, the Stanley Cup will keep on going to Florida. Speaker 1 [00:16:41] That is so painful and so poignant. Spot on. Speaker 2 [00:16:45] I wish I was a hockey fan. Speaker 1 [00:16:47] Elbows off Canada. Speaker 3 [00:16:48] Exactly. Maybe even knees if if we can get it corrected. Speaker 1 [00:16:52] Dan, thanks so much for being on Disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:16:54] You’re very welcome. And I hope to see you in the real world soon. Speaker 1 [00:17:00] Coming up after the break, we’ll talk to the co-founders of an innovative new model for early childhood education. So stay right there. Speaker 2 [00:17:10] What you’re listening to Disruptors an RBC podcast. I’m Theresa Dome, once let you know about a new weekly report from RBC Economics. It’s called Proof Point, and it provides original, timely economic insights from RBC’s economics and thought leadership team. Find out why demand for cash is at its highest level in 60 years, despite a broad shift to e-commerce. Or learn why Atlantic Canada has become a magnet for new residents. To explore more, visit RBC dot com slash thought leadership. Welcome back. On today’s show, we’re exploring all facets of the innovation economy. And as John mentioned, off the top, he was a judge at this year’s governor general’s innovation awards. So, John, what can you tell us about the winners? Speaker 1 [00:17:58] Well, the winners are all on the public record now, so I’m not opening an envelope. And some of them you’ll recognize the first is carbon cure. You may recall CEO Rob Nevin was featured two summers ago on Disrupters, talking about their ambition to be a global leader in carbon capture technology to reduce the concrete industry’s carbon footprint. Speaker 2 [00:18:18] Oh, and I hear there’s another disruptors alarm on the list of recipients as well. Speaker 1 [00:18:22] That would be apply board and CEO Martin Vaziri and his brothers, who are such a great Canadian story. They came from Iran, went to University of Waterloo, and have developed through a high board, the world’s largest online platform for connecting international students with schools. Speaker 2 [00:18:41] There was also a cool eye company I heard about. Speaker 1 [00:18:44] That would be Brain Box A.I. and all of us in buildings right now, which is most Canadians will appreciate what they’re doing, which is applying AI to optimize energy use, especially in commercial buildings, to reduce the carbon footprint of heating and cooling systems. Speaker 2 [00:19:02] And I think there was also a winner that came from our local university system. Speaker 1 [00:19:06] A company called Desired Sensation Level or Dstl, which has produced the world’s first pediatric hearing aid prescription out of Western University in London, Ontario and the National Center for Audiology. Speaker 2 [00:19:19] And as we’re reaching the tail end of the pandemic, can you tell us about the company that helped get us to this point? Speaker 1 [00:19:26] That would be lipid nanoparticles that enables COVID 19, many vaccines. We all know what are now the household names behind many of the COVID fighting vaccines, companies like Pfizer. But they don’t do it on their own. They depend on a kind of supply chain of innovation, and that includes companies like lipid nanoparticles. Speaker 2 [00:19:47] One of the other winners and our next guests are not on the technology side. By contrast, they found an innovative new way to deliver a program that is essential to our society. Karen New Track and Tessa Lockett are longtime educators who launched a preschool in the remote Arctic community upon Inlet, Nunavut. Launched in January 2016. It’s called Perovic, which means a place to grow. In a note to the preschool, combines traditional Inuit knowledge in ways and traditional Inuit child rearing with Montessori methods. In 2019, the PUREVIEW was awarded the $1 million Arctic Inspiration Prize for a project committed to addressing the, quote, causes rather than symptoms of issues facing the north. And this May Perovic was one of six winners of a 2022 Governor General’s Innovation Award. Karen TSO, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 4 [00:20:40] Thank you for having us. Speaker 2 [00:20:42] I’d love to start with a bit of your backstory. So Karen, I understand you’ve lived in Pine Inlet all your life, but Tesla, you moved to the far north from Ottawa just over a decade ago. And I’m wondering how you ended up in Nunavut and ultimately how did you and Karen decide to launch Cervi? Speaker 4 [00:20:58] I ended up in Nunavut in 2003 for the first time. I was going to Trump University and I took part in a Bush school program that was being run by the University of Manitoba. And this was done with a lot of different disciplines at the university. And I was able to go and join a summer long program in paying her tongue. And I immediately fell in love with the Inuit, and I knew I had to come back. So I got my teacher’s degree. And when my husband and I graduated from university, we were in interview. We wanted to be here more than anything. And so when we got to Pine Inlet, Karen and I met very early on when we arrived in the community, and it was a day meeting where we first met and the day meeting they were talking about how a certain issue that was at the forefront in the community at the time was referred to supporting students adequately at the high school and Pine Inlet and how we can improve supporting Grade nine students. And as children move through the school system, you know, the more and more we were looking at all of these issues, the more and more we were saying, well, we really need to be doing a better job earlier on in education, because even when children sometimes enter the school system, they might not have had access to proper early childhood education programs. And in Pine Inlet at the time, there wasn’t any. So Karen and I shook hands on it after a pretty heated discussion at the local Education Council and said, No, I think we have to do something about that. Speaker 1 [00:22:30] So it felt like we have to do something about that should be sort of engraved in the desk or on the wall of every would be innovator, because that is really what innovation is about. It’s about someone deciding, I’ve got to do something about this, which is starts with identifying a problem. And probably anyone who’s listening who has is connected to education. And we all are recognized as problems everywhere in the education system. It’s a it’s a process of endless improvement. And I’m curious how you went beyond problem identification, because that’s often where innovation stops. People identify the problem. They point fingers, but no one figures out how to get to solutions. How how were you able to get from problem to solution. Speaker 4 [00:23:19] In the preschool? We have a situation where just at the time when a child is entering, sort of being excited to potentially leave home and ready to branch out beyond the family unit. It’s a moment where we felt that it was really important to nourish and make sure that a child might have access to programing that, AH is not typically involved or accessed in in the in a community like Pine Inlet, which is a remote community in the Canadian High Arctic. And so often people say, well, we can’t get that here because of this, that or the other thing. Well, why not? So you get to a point where you just kind of have to know what you have and you just want to go in and do that and experiment. And the success that we’ve had in the community has been really central to parent support when people sort of so seeing what we were trying to do and trying to provide cultural materials, language materials that were really grounded in and what was important and pond and land. We received parent support immediately and that was really crucial to what we were doing and how we were doing it and why we became successful because so many people had input into what we were doing in the preschool. It was developed over a period of two years with the new Newman Arctic College. So at that time it was like a slow build and it had the involvement of so many people from the community. So everyone really had a vested interest and and seeing this program succeed, but also that everyone really had a part of themselves in it, like everything from little sewn materials and the. Preschool. You know, we had the elementary school teachers have input into the actual language development of Inuktitut in the preschool program imagery that was attached to certain silverbacks. And whenever Owen saw, we were just trying to do the best that we could so that we could support children in schools as a good launching pad to be ready for school. Everyone supported us right away. It was like this organic excitement around what we were trying to do and when everyone kind of became involved that it really generated this incredible energy behind it to make sure that it was successful. Speaker 2 [00:25:36] One of the challenges for any innovator is scaling bring that new product or service or program to a broader market, and having a father reaching impact and having started with a classroom of 18 kids in 2016 but have since launched a program where trainers are now touring the North, introducing the program to the rest of Nunavut. How are you scaling and expanding that program? Will also retaining that grass roots approach that has in part made it so successful? Speaker 4 [00:26:05] When we decided to move forward at the suggestion of NTI, we had made this project in Pond Inlet and it was really going well and Pond Inlet and we were contacted by Nunavut Technology Inc. and they said, We really like what you guys are doing in Pond Inlet. How can we support you in doing that? And we said, Well, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you want us to do? And they said, Well, we have funding that we could support you by maybe making a documentary or in training binders. And and we said, Oh, that’s a great idea. Oh, that’s a great idea. I think we would pick a community that might be interested. And we’d already been contacted by several community programs who wanted to see what we were doing and actually come to the community to see how it was playing out in Parliament. So essentially we’ve reached out to Clyde River, the early Saxony program there, and they had already communicated with us that they’re interested in trying something similar to their preschool program. So we did a pilot project there and it was successful. And everybody contacts Karyn one at the time, you know, to say, hey, how can we how can we do that? How can we get that in our facility? And and it’s all word of mouth. It’s all very organic and how we can continue to expand, but it’s different for every community. And and we try to incorporate their culture because every every region is has different cultures. So for example, like in Panama, there’s a certain style of community sled. So for example, the sled that we might use in the preschool program in Pond Inlet and make a smaller version for it for the children to use in their play, there’s a totally different style of community in Cambridge or Rankin and the different ways of. So we have little clean sealskin cleaning boards and structures with little wooden, you know, is the nice to clean the seal skin. And each region may have different ways to clean their still skin and how we do it in pontoon. Speaker 1 [00:28:23] But that kind of culturally appropriate technology, if I can put it that way, would be wonderful to have more broadly across society. So often we have things kind of presented to us or pushed on us as a one size fits all. And I think that’s one of the many things that makes you an innovator, is finding ways to do things in a culturally appropriate and and inclusive manner. Speaker 4 [00:28:48] And our dialect is different. So we adapt to their dialect, like Cambridge Bay and Rankin and Pontin, but all have different dialects. Speaker 3 [00:28:59] But it’s. Speaker 4 [00:28:59] All right, it’s in it. And we knocked it and we can still understand their language, but we we adapt to their third language. Speaker 2 [00:29:09] I think that that ability to adapt and to build on original ideas is extraordinarily important and terrific has been so successful. Again, you’re exporting the concept to different regions in different parts of the world, but it seems to me that the program is more than just educating young children. It’s also about empowering individuals, whatever their age, to find the solutions, to meet their needs and to create their own past success. Karen Tas I’d love to hear from you about what can future innovators and other communities around the world learn from the approach that you’ve created to inspire their own innovations? Speaker 4 [00:29:45] I think what you’ve touched on there is something that to me is the most moving part of this project is that it’s not only about the development of a child, it is also about the development and fostering and healing of adults that. The training as well. So, for example, we’ve all been taught a certain way, usually in one specific way in our own education, which is top down, and to absorb knowledge and to have the teachings of others imposed upon us. If I may say and then in this project, when you enter a room of the training, when you have, okay, well, you’re here and you’re going to learn from the child, you’re going to sit in the side of the room and you’re going to observe how a child learns and how they move from one activity to another and how they are stimulating themselves by their own interests. That also transcends into the adults as well. Whenever we go and work with the community, we’re not saying, Hey, we have this great program, do what we do. It’s What do you need? How can we support you? This is our experience. But what kinds of things can we provide for you? Speaker 2 [00:30:52] I think that is such an excellent sentiment and one of mutual respect and understanding. Karen and Tessa, thank you so much for joining us today and for being on Disruptors. Really appreciate your. Speaker 4 [00:31:01] Time. Korean me. Speaker 3 [00:31:03] Again. Speaker 1 [00:31:06] What a thought provoking set of conversations and kind of a nice bookend for innovation. We started with Dan presidents who gave a profound overview of the innovation, challenge and imperative in the world that if we are going to improve prosperity, if we’re going to be able to afford all that we take for granted in our society, we are going to need to innovate much more than we are today, and that’s on business to really take forward. And then we heard from Karen and Tessa, who I thought captured really well how innovation is seen and should be seen through the eyes of the user. Too often we have innovation from a central organization. It can be a government, it can be a big company saying Here we’ve got a better mousetrap and we’ve made it accessible for you. But the user experience kind of sucks. And as we know, whether it’s technology or education or health care or other aspects of our lives, the user experience is critical to innovation. Teresa, what stood out for you? Speaker 2 [00:32:11] I loved hearing from Karen and Tessa, John, and especially them talking about how they’ve shifted the locus of power in the classroom. And it’s that turning of conventions on their head that I think is a super key ingredient in making sure that innovation really is able to spread throughout the economy. And exactly as you mentioned, it is the focus on the user, in this case, the student that makes everything they do just so remarkable. I can clearly understand why it is spreading throughout the circumpolar world. It’s quite beautiful. That is all for now. Thanks to our guests, Dan President, Karen Nu, Tarak and Tesla Lockheed. Next week, join us for the latest tech and innovation buzz with our ten minute tech series. Until then, I’m Teresa Doerr. Speaker 1 [00:32:54] And I’m John Stackhouse. This is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 2 [00:33:01] Disruptors, an RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by JAR audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our rbc.com/disruptors.