Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hi, it’s John. I recently had a chance to spend time in British Columbia talking with a fascinating and eclectic group of people, from energy economists to motorcycle makers, about Canada’s clean energy transition. It’s all part of this special three part series we’re calling The Climate Conversations. In the first episode, I spoke to some of Canada’s leading thinkers on energy and climate issues. And while each came at it from a distinct and sometimes competing perspective, there was a consensus that, yes, both energy and climate security are possible. In the second episode, I took a tour of BC’s Clean Tech Valley and met some of the exciting innovators who are helping shape Canada’s transition to a clean energy economy. These are the entrepreneurs who give me great hope for the future. But we can’t talk about our future or the importance of developing climate and energy security without first acknowledging the failings of our collective past when it comes to Indigenous peoples. Indigenous Canadians are deeply proud of where they come from and who they are. Their traditional territories are vital to their identity, not just to their livelihoods, land, water, sky, shape, indigenous identity. And we need to remind ourselves that energy comes from land, water and sky. So any discussion of an energy transition needs to not only include indigenous people. It needs to incorporate indigenous thinking and indigenous ownership. If we are to truly meet our ambitious climate and energy goals as a country, we need to ensure that all Canadians, but especially indigenous Canadians upon whose lands we live and work, are engaged in this fight for sustainable change. The future of our economy and our country may just depend on it. This is Disruptors. An RBC podcast. I’m your host, John Stackhouse. On today’s episode in the final of our three part series, The Climate Conversations, I’ll be speaking with two remarkable indigenous leaders in British Columbia who are working to transform both our society and economy through innovation, collaboration and an entrepreneurial spirit. After the break, we’ll hear from the elected chief of the Hyslop people centered on Bcc’s northern coast, who’s also chair of the First Nations LNG Alliance. But first, my conversation with a Vancouver based business leader who is helping transform the way indigenous communities conceive and execute projects for a more sustainable future. Mark PUD lastly is Director of Economic Policy and initiatives at the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, which is a national collective of more than 65 indigenous nations seeking ownership of major projects such as pipelines and electric infrastructure. He’s also director of governance at the First Nations Financial Management Board, which is leading the development of an indigenous response to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Mark, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:03:10] Well, thank you. I’m very pleased to be here, John. Speaker 1 [00:03:13] I wonder, Mark, if we can start with some reflections on the impact of climate change, because you’re part of a nation and a community in South Central B.C. that has not only been devastated by climate change, but also captured the world’s attention. Maybe you can share a bit of what you’ve you’ve learned from that experience. Speaker 2 [00:03:34] Well, we are from the into come, which is in central interior, British Columbia, South Central B.C. and we had both of the big climate events of British Columbia hit us within six months. The first was the fire at Lytton. Lytton as one of our communities in our nation where the temperature went to almost 50 degrees Celsius, hottest temperature in Canadian history, and then the place burned to the ground the next day. And then last winter, we had the atmospheric river come through and it hit Merritt, which is also one of our nations communities. And the rivers just washed everything out. There were 38 washouts in both directions up to my community, washed away the reserve where my mother was born. It’s gone completely and Highway eight still isn’t rebuilt. So it’s it’s been a horrific year climate wise for us. Speaker 1 [00:04:17] And people around the world watched in horror and some said this is why we need to get off fossil fuels immediately or as quickly as possible. And yet many of the communities that were devastated by this are also investing in projects that will continue to ensure that oil and gas get to people in Canada and around the world. How do you balance what some see as a contradiction and others just see as a as a challenge between those two points of view? Speaker 2 [00:04:47] I think what’s important to remember is that this is an energy transition. There is a point where we are going to have to stop using a lot of these fossil fuels, but in order for us to do that instantly is going to cause enormous pain. We just don’t have the renewables and in the amount we need to do an instant switch. So I think right now it’s a question of smart decisions about which petroleum based assets we will develop and use. The references you’ve made to a lot of First Nations, particularly in B.C., around LNG, LNG as a cleaner fuel than oil. And that is where a lot of first nations are putting their effort right now. So it’s a transition. It’s not going to be instant. Speaker 1 [00:05:22] What indigenous perspectives do we need to be more mindful of in terms of finding this balance? Speaker 2 [00:05:28] I think to look at this is that Indigenous people right now are very invested. Some Indigenous people are very invested in the petroleum and the energy sector and there’s a lot of interest right now in developing sources of energy that are cleaner. And I think that’s where indigenous people, at least from the Coalition, are willing and happy to proceed. The question we have is we don’t want to be caught off guard in the development of new energy systems like we were in the past, where they are coming from our lands and our resources and we are not benefiting from that. So there’s a lot of hard questions to be asked about what’s our energy mix going to be. And then for Canadian society about what’s the role of indigenous people on whom our lands are are basically tied to these energy, either in clean energy and hydroelectricity or solar or wind or in petroleum and natural gas. There’s some tough questions that have to be worked out. Speaker 1 [00:06:18] And what is the role of indigenous peoples in those decisions? Speaker 2 [00:06:22] We are the owners in many cases of title on these lands and for us to be involved in these projects, it means we have to be involved at the beginning, not at the end. Most industrial development in this country now is done centrally or somewhere. Somebody else decides that indigenous people are consulted at the end. That’s just not going to work in the future, and it’s certainly not going to work under a world of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People, which calls for free prior informed consent before these projects are developed. Indigenous people have to be informed upfront of what’s being planned or is going to proceed. Indigenous people then will have a say in the planning, the operation, the development and the ownership of many of these projects. What consent comes down to is. Have the Indigenous people been informed ahead of time? Freely given their approval to projects. This doesn’t mean that indigenous people are against all projects. No. The Coalition, for example, we have 85/1 nations across the country who are interested in participating in projects and are interested in smart projects that meet the national goals energy wise and economy and First Nations aspirations towards self-determination. Speaker 1 [00:07:26] Tell us a bit about the the Major Projects Coalition, how it came about and what it’s trying to achieve. Speaker 2 [00:07:31] The Major Projects Coalition started about six or seven years ago when 6/1 nations in northern British Columbia had an opportunity to acquire equity in a pipeline project. They then went out to try and source that equity and found that it was too expensive the cost of capital because First Nations the way were organized under the Indian Act. We don’t own our land, we don’t own our assets. They’re held in trust by the government. And trying to actually raise money on assets that you don’t own is a fruitless exercise. There’s just banks wouldn’t do it. So if we could get capital, it would be at the cost of credit card type rates. And that’s just not economic. So the 16/1 nations said, you know what, this is could happen to us again, so we’re going to be ready the next time. So they formed the coalition as a service organization, 2/1 nations, to improve their technical ability to access capital and technical skills and finding people who could assist them prepare for the next deals that would come around. And it’s happened. You’re starting to see it now from those 16 we have grown to 85. The coalition does not market itself. It is all by word of mouth. And these are first nations who are being approached by proponents of major projects looking for commercial partners. And we provide the service to those communities to ask the right questions about going into those projects. Speaker 1 [00:08:47] What sort of projects are you looking at or communities looking at? Speaker 2 [00:08:51] There are energy projects, a lot of clean energy projects now, either in hydroelectricity or partial ownership of transmission lines. And those include the gambit of geothermal. Hydrogen is now coming up as as more and more communities are being approached. Transmission lines, pipelines have come up in discussion. There’s railway discussions now about everything from via rail project in Ontario and Quebec to other projects here in British Columbia and sometimes mining companies as well. Mining companies looking to access critical minerals for net zero batteries and car manufacturers. Those are all coming up. Speaker 1 [00:09:24] When there is indigenous ownership. What what changes? Speaker 2 [00:09:28] What changes with indigenous ownership? First of all, indigenous people will then be involved at the project from the beginning. So it allows Indigenous people to have more say in how the projects will be built and improved. A lot of times traditional knowledge can be better incorporated into the planning of a land based project. The other side of it is it provides in theory the Indigenous party with a revenue stream which is independent from government for priorities that the First Nation wants to focus on. The other side of this, that changes is it changes the relationship between the proponent and the first nation. Because if a first nation moves into an equity position within a project, they essentially become core proponents. And corporate opponents by nature have given consent. So it’s a win for both sides. Speaker 1 [00:10:12] The climate transition is going to take a lot of capital. Our research at RBC estimates Canadians will need to invest or mobilize $2 trillion over the next 25 to 30 years. That’s roughly $80 billion a year or about four times what we’re investing in transition activities right now. How can we see more indigenous capital mobilize Mark and perhaps do so more quickly? Speaker 2 [00:10:38] Well, I’m glad you noted that there is indigenous capital in this country. My community has a revenue sharing deal with a mining company in our territory and when we started to set that up, we did some research to find out how much indigenous capital is there in Canada. And we found just back of the envelope calculations at that time about $8 billion of assets under management by Indigenous people. And it’s not in one spot. It’s different settlements from either land treaties from negotiations with mining companies or energy companies. We figure now that somewhere between 13 and 18 billion my nation has a fund right now of about 50 million. And we have the ability and the fund to make direct placements into investments that that will grow that fund. Most of these nations do. So that capital is there. The question, though, is that how can indigenous people directly invest in these projects? I think for a lot of the financial sector, they don’t see us as Indigenous investors. The idea of being an indigenous investor seems to be an oxymoron to some of these companies who come into territories and don’t think of Indigenous people in that sense. That has to change. You already pointed out the amount of money that’s going to have to be mobilized for the transition, the energy transition. Where’s that going to come from? It’s going to come from Canadian investors, but also outside the country. Canada at the moment needs to attract that investment, and one way to do it is to reduce the risk of these projects. And one way to do that is ensure that an Indigenous people are co proponents are part of the projects upfront. The Coalition did a conference last year on ESG investment standards and we found in the ESG investment standards there’s practically no Indigenous involvement and there’s no Indigenous risk mitigation of the risks that Indigenous people could pose to projects. We’re proposing that no, you bring us in as investors at the beginning, and we will demonstrate by our involvement that that risk is taken care of, and that should improve the ability of the project to raise capital from outside investors. Speaker 1 [00:12:30] You spent a lot of time, I know, looking at how other countries are progressing with respect to indigenous ownership in in all forms of development. What should we be learning? What can we learn from other countries? Speaker 2 [00:12:41] We have to think about under the United Nations Declaration, the rights of indigenous people as a worldwide thing. It’s not just Canadian. And there’s a rush for capital to attract those trillions of dollars needed to transform economies. Different nations in different parts of the world have different ways of engaging indigenous people. And in our work we engage with some in New Zealand and in the United States. We also did some checking into South America. Every area is different. Canada has an edge on this and that we are more advanced in the concept of self-determination as being a right of indigenous people. Other nations are also pursuing that path. And what we found is that we have a lot to share with Indigenous people in other parts of the world, but it’s a worldwide competition right now to get these capital dollars into transformative economies. And Canada right now. I’m very pleased to say, is doing better than most countries in the world. Speaker 1 [00:13:32] What has shifted that has made Canada seen as more of a leader than laggard? Speaker 2 [00:13:37] I think what it is here is we have a rule of law. We have a very well-developed court system precedents on indigenous issues. Also, there’s a shift in the public attitude where people understand now that a lot of the resources needed to transform our economy are going to come from indigenous lands, the power stations, the geothermal plants, the hydroelectric facilities, the transmission lines, the critical minerals. I have an 18 year old daughter and she knows where the lithium came from in her cell phone and she knows what’s involved in the power generation. When she leaves the lights on, that’s changed here. There’s a massive attitude shift and people’s understanding of what’s involved in driving this economy. I think that’s an edge that Canadians have and we need to mobilize that. Speaker 1 [00:14:23] Mark. We’ve been exploring through this podcast series the incredible challenges that Canada is facing in terms of finding a balance between energy security, ensuring that we have affordable, accessible energy, and that we’re able to support other countries, especially our allies, with that while facing extraordinary inflationary pressures and balance out with climate security and the race. And it really is a race to net zero. How do you think about these challenges and many more from an indigenous perspective, which often suggests more time is needed if we’re to make the right decisions and we need to think generationally and not be in such a rush. How do you balance that need to really get things done in a hurry and not be wasteful in the process? Speaker 2 [00:15:10] I bring us back to the discussion of the atmospheric rivers and the fires in Lytton that happened last summer. You’re right, we have limited time now to save the climate and that affects all of us. It’s not just indigenous people versus the rest of the country or the federal government. By 2030, we’re supposed to have shifted most of our vehicle sales 50% anyway in this country over to electric vehicles. It takes more than eight years to build a mine, never mind power stations. We as indigenous people are in this with everybody else. So there have to be, as you said, smart decisions made. And the only way smart decision is going to be made is that there’s a wholesome, fully engaged discussion from the beginning about what we’re going to do. I think what you’re referring to in the in the sense of Indigenous people having longer timeframes for things is true. But our house is on fire and it’s a mutual house. We’ve got to start moving on this. And this is why at the Coalition we’re calling for an immediate discussion on all these projects upfront with Indigenous people at the beginning. Speaker 1 [00:16:07] Our house is on fire. What’s the one thing you’d like to see happen this year to help us move quicker in the direction we need to move? Speaker 2 [00:16:16] I would like to see some form of cheaper capital access for Indigenous people to make the investments in these projects to be proponents in them. That will be the number one challenge that we face as Indigenous people to get involved in these projects. We have 85 members across the country in the Coalition. All of those nations have joined because they want to be participants in these projects. And the problem we have is finding capital and that doesn’t mean a giveaway. Indigenous people are beyond that. They’re not looking for giveaways from these projects. We’re looking to have a meaningful involvement in the economy, in the projects, in the net zero solutions. Speaker 1 [00:16:49] And Mark, I think we should all be saying challenge accepted. That’s something we can solve. Mark, thank you for being on RBC Disruptors. Speaker 2 [00:16:56] Thanks for having me. I’ve enjoyed this immensely. Speaker 1 [00:17:01] Coming up after the break, I’ll speak with the elected chief of the Hyslop people who is transforming the economic prospects of her 1900 member nation. So stay right there. Speaker 3 [00:17:14] You’re listening to Disruptors and RBC podcast. I’m Teresa Do. The world has rightly been consumed with combating climate change for some time, but something changed this year as Russian troops invaded Ukraine. Policymakers across the world were confronted with a more immediate challenge. Energy security. Tensions between energy security and climate change were simmering for some time, but the war has laid bare the vulnerability of global oil markets and the ability of bad actors to disrupt energy supply chains. It’s its domino effect on other commodities and industries has already knocked out global economic growth. Just released a new RBC Economics and thought leadership report called The New Climate Bargain How Canada Can Manage Energy and Environmental Security. To read it, click the link in the show notes or visit RBC dot com slash thought leadership. Speaker 1 [00:18:10] Welcome back. On today’s episode, we’re speaking about our clean energy transition and how Canada’s indigenous peoples can help lead the way toward greater economic prosperity and sustainable development. And our next guest knows a thing or two about both. Crystal Smith is the elected chief of the Hyslop people, centered on Kitimat Village along BC’s northern coast. In November 2019, she was named chair of the First Nations LNG Alliance, a group committed to encouraging First Nations development of what was then a nascent liquid natural gas industry and providing employment and other sustainable benefits for BC’s Indigenous people. She Smith, welcome to Disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:18:49] Thank you for having me. Speaker 1 [00:18:50] Let’s start with your story and what got you into politics is not the first temptation for many people. What experience inspired you to run to be chief of the Haisla people? Speaker 3 [00:19:00] My stepfather was actually an elected council member when I was in elementary school, and I remember him coming home and talking about a few things that they were working on and that they were focusing on just getting a better understanding of what our chief and council back then did. I grew up admiring him for the accomplishments that he made in his life and didn’t necessarily want to be in politics, but definitely wanted to be a part of the betterment of our people, whether that I worked for the nation or but I always envisioned myself being as an employee or something here with the nation. And then later on, what actually got me into learning about more in-depth was I became the executive assistant to our first female chief councilor, Dolores Pollard, in, I believe it was 2009. And I stayed as the executive assistant until 2013 when Ellis Ross was running for Chief Councilor, and it was actually one of his speeches that he made at the Vancouver Convention Center in his belief of what the work that we were doing with the LNG industry and his vision of what it could do for our people, and immediately told them, I want to become a part of your team. What do you think if I run for council and kind of took the plunge from there? Speaker 1 [00:20:19] What a great story and a good reminder that the next generation is always watching and wondering if you can share a bit of the Haisla story, because it’s not a well understood story, unfortunately, across Canada. Tell us a bit about what the community has built over the last decade. Speaker 3 [00:20:34] One thing that I definitely think that is important for people to understand is that while we’re being a part of a new industry, that our nation isn’t the new industrial development overall. We’ve witnessed methanol plant, aluminum smelter, a pulp and paper mill be developed and built and operated in our territory for 20 to 50 years. And essentially we’ve sat on, on the sidelines, witnessed the destruction of our territory, our environment and our cultural resources to being active partners within a process where we had a seat at the table with LNG, Canada and Coastal Gaslink talking about what was important to us, what it means to be Haisla. Having our seat at the table gave us huge responsibility in terms of being the landlords of all of our resources and giving advice to developers and builders as to how to safely do it with minimal impacts to our environment. One of our elected leaders, Heber Maitland, he was a chief councilor in the eighties, I believe termed the saying that we just wanted a share and a say. We wanted a share of the wealth that was being generated. We wanted a share of the employment opportunities that were available. And we wanted to see as to how they were being built, how it was being developed. And today I can proudly say that we’re there as a part of LNG Canada, coastal gaslink and more so now is owners 51% owners of Cedar LNG with our partners. Speaker 1 [00:22:09] Pembina And in terms of development, what has been done differently because of that share and say. Speaker 3 [00:22:16] For an example one of our very important cultural resources to to our nation is still a camp. And so the spawning time or the, the time that they would come into the rivers is in between February and March. And there’s not too many other levels of government or any other entities that put a value on the election can. But it’s a huge staple of our Haisla identity. So in terms of the B.C. LNG, Canada was doing some dredging and within that process of doing the permit application, we worked out the issues prior to that permit being applied for so that as opposed to the permit going into the regulators and then coming back to us for our questions, it actually went along with our support when being filed. And that involved no dredging during February and March when the oil can could possibly arrive. So there’s many things like that within the process of what we’ve implemented into the discussions and essentially negotiations. Speaker 1 [00:23:24] One of the big ideas we’re trying to explore is this challenge that Canada now faces of needing to produce more resources both for Canadians and for the world, and do that more sustainably. We have very ambitious climate targets, among other environmental goals. And at the same time, to pursue reconciliation in more and more meaningful ways. How do we do that, especially in the short timeframe that many people believe we have to reach goals like net zero? Speaker 3 [00:23:54] Well, for one, for the LNG. Even before ESG became a thing, our team actually sat in in a room in Vancouver for, I want to say, a week to go over proposals for a partner. How much money the nation would make wasn’t a huge priority. The priority was what kind of technology will you use and will you use air cooled or water cooled? We stuck to what we wanted for our environment, and we chose a partner that aligned their visions and their desires with the nation. And actually, I remember throughout that process there was one RFP that came in and that the executives would not leave the topic. And they were very adamant that the project needed to make money. If the project didn’t make as much money as they envisioned, the nation wouldn’t make as much money as we desired. And I had looked at our team and I said, I don’t think this conversation needs to go any further. And the room kind of looked at me stunned. Our team looked stunned. And I said, there’s no compromise. And what we’re saying is that we want minimal impacts. I’m not willing to stand up in front of our community and say we chose money over our environment. And so I looked at the rest of the elected leaders and said, are you willing to do that? And the answer was no when the conversation ended. Speaker 1 [00:25:16] You’ve said that the Coastal Gaslink project, which will transport natural gas from north eastern B.C. to Kitimat, promises, I think you use the word transformational benefits for the Haisla nation. Can you explain what you mean by transformational? Speaker 3 [00:25:30] You know, we think about what we’ve been able to do and being a part of a process where, you know, coastal Gaslink and LNG Canada took the time to understand and get to know who we are and why certain circumstances remain the same. And it was because of our past history with industrial development and having proponents come in and, and learn who you are and what you want to accomplish and align themselves of saying, this is where we can help with that vision. Here is where we can help with that goal and being partners within that process and providing resources that necessarily weren’t provided before. We have the lowest unemployment rate right now. If you want to work, you can work. There’s nobody that that doesn’t have an opportunity. So that’s on one level where I’m saying it’s transformational. Analysts own source revenue or funds being generated by impact benefit agreements. We now have the ability to work on behalf of our people. Our chief and council and our staff have that ability to create programs that actually deliver what is required and what is needed. And we’re able to prioritize what is important. Our culture and language is a huge example. I had a meeting last night at dinner meeting, and I’ve got a twin identical twin sister and I was sharing how my day started yesterday. It’s my first day back after two weeks off of work, and she shared an audio recording of her speaking our language. Sorry. Speaker 1 [00:27:08] No. Take your time. Speaker 3 [00:27:10] We grew up with our grandparents, and when they didn’t want us to know what they were talking about, they would speak our language. And hearing her speak, it gives me hope that my grandchildren will be able to speak our language and will know exactly what it means to be high. So they will learn our culture. They will learn how to harvest food, they will learn our language. And that is so important. Speaker 1 [00:27:41] Thank you for sharing that. It’s inspiring, it’s beautiful. And also, I imagine quite challenging for as it is for any community with strong traditions around the world to preserve culture and tradition with respect to indigenous rights. One of the questions is with the concept of free, prior and informed consent, one of the challenges that many see with consent is who it comes from. And there’s much debate, as you know, about the role of hereditary or traditional leaders versus elected leaders, chiefs and council. How do you balance different forms of governance within the community and ensuring that there is concern, but sometimes consent doesn’t come with unanimity? How do you think through those challenges. Speaker 3 [00:28:35] Regardless of your if you’re a hereditary or elected, you have an obligation to your membership and they are the deciding factors as to who represents them, who speaks on behalf of them and how that looks. You know, some communities are further advanced than others, such as Katla. I absolutely admire their process and how both their elected and hereditary systems essentially work together and how they get to agreements for for their members. Our community said we have the support of our hereditary leaders in regards to the work that the elected leadership is doing right now. Our membership acknowledges that and that the predatory system wants their elected body to represent rights of title. And you know that that process and I honestly reflect back and ask why. And when I listen to our Chiefs speak, it’s essentially to benefit all types of members. They want that ability for for doesn’t matter which family you come from, it doesn’t matter where you live. You deserve a benefit. And essentially, that’s what that that’s their role as well as a predatory leader. It is to look after our land. It is to make decisions that are in the best interests of the land and our people and to share that wealth. Speaker 1 [00:29:59] We’ve covered a lot of ground here. I wonder if I can wrap up with one last question about economic reconciliation and what you think the rest of Canada needs to come to grips with. For communities like yours and leaders like you to navigate this journey. Speaker 3 [00:30:16] It’s a process that but we have to be a part of and that it’s putting a lot of responsibility and expectations on proponents and other levels of government. But this process internally has been long, difficult, huge learning curves in terms of what we’ve been a part of. So essentially give some time because it’s not an overnight process. An entity has its shareholders and its board of directors. Our shareholders are 1900 members, and that’s just specifically Haisla and that’s who essentially gives us our mandate of a yes or a no. And that process takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to accomplish. So give the First Nations communities the time and again. Not all of us are the same. Some of us will be a little bit quicker and have had a lot of practice through that process. But give time, get to know the community, get to know what their goals and what their visions are. Speaker 1 [00:31:14] Time and balance. Those are two key words you’ve stressed today. Christel, thank you so much for being part of RBC Disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:31:22] Thank you for having me. Speaker 1 [00:31:27] What an inspiring set of conversations. And I don’t know about you, but it takes me back in time. Actually, about 20 years ago when I was a newspaper reporter, spending a year crisscrossing Canada, engaging with different indigenous communities from Vancouver Island to Cape Breton to the far north, trying to understand this great quiet divide we have in the country between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples. And at the time, many of these communities were actually leading an economic revolution, whether it was through salmon farming or hockey franchises or the hotel industry or nickel mines up in northern Quebec. And it was the rest of Canada that was slow to catch on. We’re still too slow. But as we accelerate through the climate transition, it’s time for Canadians to recognize that indigenous communities and indigenous peoples need to help lead this transition. And they can take all of Canada to an incredible place if we partner with them and if we give them the say and share that we heard about in this conversation, that’s the only way that we’re going to get to energy security, climate security, economic security and the kind of Social Security that Canadians have become a model for to the world in previous decades. It’s the only way we’ll be able to build sustainable prosperity for all and for generations to come. That’s it for this time and this special Climate Conversation series. Thanks again to our guests, Mark Podlasly and Chief Crystal Smith. And let us know what you think. Just email us at disruptors at RBC dot com or follow us on your favorite social channels. Join us next week for the latest Tech and Innovation Buzz with our ten minute take series. Until then, I’m John Stackhouse, and this is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 3 [00:33:19] Disruptors, an RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our rbc.com social disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hi, it’s John here. I’m in Vancouver. And if you want to see the future of clean technology, there are few places in the world that will give you a better view. Twenty five percent of Canada’s clean tech companies are here. This is maybe the Global Center for Hydrogen and Fuel Cells and all sorts of other technologies that will change the way we live, manufacture, travel and consume, and can also help the rest of the world transform the way we use energy. In episode one of our climate series, you heard about the great challenge Canada is facing to balance energy security and climate security. It’s possible it’s going to cost a lot $80 billion of investment that we’re going to need to generate as a country, and it’s going to take new technologies. And to get there, we’re going to need innovation at a scale we haven’t seen in our lifetimes. I had the opportunity to talk recently with Marty Reed. He’s a long time investor who moved from Silicon Valley to Vancouver in 2015 to launch Evok Innovations. And I asked him where some of the most exciting areas are right now for clean tech. Speaker 2 [00:01:09] Certainly, carbon capture is top of the headlines along with hydrogen. Those are kind of two areas that have just generated enormous attention. I think we absolutely have solutions today that are proven and able to scale, and we can’t use any excuse to delay that path. In parallel, though, we know we need real true innovation to get ultimately where we need to get. And so it really is a all paths strategy. Innovation will be critical, but at the same time, there are solutions today that we can’t be dragging our feet on deploying. Speaker 1 [00:01:43] Marty, I think, is speaking to one of the fundamental challenges of the transition for Canada, and that’s that we need to get a lot more comfortable with risk. We’re going to have to take chances and invest a significant amount of money in technologies that have yet to be proven at scale. We don’t have time to wait for the perfect business case to be presented. Instead, we’re going to have to make a number of bets and count on some of them paying off big time. This is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. I’m your host, John Stackhouse. On today’s episode, we’re taking a road trip through Clean-Tech Valley and meeting some of the innovators in BC’s burgeoning clean tech sector. British Columbia is in many ways showing us how to do it. It’s been a leader in North America in both policy and private sector investment, and it’s not only changing the economy and society all around me here, but also demonstrating the economic opportunity that could bring in a new era of sustainable growth for all Canadians. So stay with us as we travel through Greater Vancouver and meet some of the entrepreneurs who have set out to transform the decade ahead. We’re at the entrance of 70, which two people familiar with the Clean-Tech space is a Canadian champion for carbon capture and sequestration. Speaker 2 [00:03:14] Hi there. Hi, I’m John. Hi, John. Nice to meet you. Speaker 1 [00:03:17] Great to meet you. Speaker 2 [00:03:19] So my name is Matt Stevenson. I’m the CFO of Svante. I’d been here for I think about seven years now and joined the company halfway through its development. This is our pilot manufacturing facility. And so today this is where we make the actual filter bids that capture CO2. And you know, we have an operating plant sketch when we’re building another one right now for Chevron in California, and this is where we actually produced today, the beds for those plants. We also have engineering and manufacturing staff here. And so what’s really exciting for us is we’re going to be moving. If you just look out at about five minutes that way to the south, to a brand new one hundred and forty thousand square foot facility, which was going to house all of our R&D or manufacturing, our new manufacturing line and some of our product prototyping. So it’s it’s an exciting transition for us. Speaker 1 [00:04:05] Before we go any further, explain the name Svante. Speaker 2 [00:04:09] Yeah, this is this is where we reveal our inner geek as a company. We also take savant that we’re find to be CO2 savants. But this font is named after Sun Arrhenius, and in the 1890s he was one of the first scientists to put down on paper. The connection between CO2 in the atmosphere and rising temperatures. So this is well understood physics. However, there’s another connection to us, which is he was sort of a chemical engineer before chemical engineers existed, and then he was putting together a lot of disciplines at the time, physics and chemistry, and he came up with something called the or any US law, which is a law that every chemical engineer and many other engineers learn in their undergrads about the connection between the rate, the speed at which you do something and the temperature. In fact, our adsorption process is a rapid cycle process and relies on that principle. We actually use the erroneous law in the in our daily business. And so it’s got a it’s got a few connections to the company. Speaker 1 [00:05:04] Matt, we’re now in your office and we’re looking at a plastic model, I can’t help but think of childhood visions of a toy garage I used to have where you could take the Mattel cars I think they were and make them go around the circular ramp, going up to the parking garage on the roof. I don’t think any of my friends as a kid had a plastic model of a carbon capture unit because it was just born in the wrong century. Speaker 2 [00:05:29] Well, I suppose we’re always been a little bit ahead of our time, although the times are catching up. You know, we created this quick model. We wanted it to be as simple as we think our process is, which is to have a solid state filter material that absorbs the CO2 and then regenerates it and purifies it. And does that in a really simple piece of equipment and does it very quickly. And so that’s what you see here. You see a simple device. So it’s a Speaker 1 [00:05:50] big circle with plastic pieces, red, orange, yellow that you can move around. And I’m trying not to just start playing with that because it looks like fun. Speaker 2 [00:06:02] You absolutely can. You’re welcome to. Yeah. Each of the colored sort of representations of ducks is showing a step of the cycle. So, you know, in the red duck, we’re showing flue gas would be flowing through this duct. The next duck, that’s orange. You would have steam coming in and regenerating the CO2. So you now have just water and CO2. If you cool it down, you have purified CO2. And then the yellow step is where you’re cooling down the absorbent and making it ready again to absorb CO2 from flue gas. And what you see here in the black material is a representation of our structured absorbent beds. So these are simple filter units that we put in this rotor, and it just rotates through each step of the process, absorbing the CO2, deserving the CO2 and being cooled down. And what you get in this material is something that’s very modular, very scalable and very low cost. Speaker 1 [00:06:49] So this model is, I’m guessing, two feet in diameter. What does a real unit look like? Speaker 2 [00:06:55] Yeah. So if you think about our existing pilot plant in Saskatchewan, that’s capturing 10000 tonnes per year of CO2, that’s four meters in diameter as we scale it up. We actually do it as a big, tall roadster with a big hole in the center. And when you get up to, you know, a 14 meter diameter, it’s only one or two meters wide and that’s capturing, you know, could be a thousand tons per day of CO2 or 350000 tons per year. And then we have larger device designs up to 24 meters and outside diameter that could do, you know, a million tonnes per year of CO2. Speaker 1 [00:07:29] Can we go see the some of the real stuff? Speaker 2 [00:07:31] Absolutely. I’d love to show you that. Speaker 1 [00:07:35] We’re now entering the main part of the industrial facility where the brains of 70 look to be part and work hard. Speaker 2 [00:07:42] That’s right. Yeah, so we stepped into our pilot manufacturing line. So this is the day where we actually produce our structured absorb and filter beds that are operating today in the field and our pilot plant in Saskatchewan soon to be operating in a plant with Chevron in California. And we’ll walk through the process of making our filter beds, you know, sort of in the sequence that I showed you, which is you’re starting with absorbent powder, you’re turning that into a slurry. You’re coating that slurry into a thin film. You’re then printing dots, stacking it and forming it into a structured absorbent than the unit Speaker 1 [00:08:16] you’re talking about. Might look like maybe a big window inside a box that you might buy at the Home Depot. How many of these would you need for a unit of that size that would capture a million tonnes? Speaker 2 [00:08:31] Forty eight of these will capture 10000 tons of CO2, and it’s relatively linear from there. So if you want to capture a million tonnes per year of CO2, you’re looking at not tens of thousands, but you know, thousands of these units right here that are organized again into 48 modules that are repeatable. Speaker 1 [00:08:53] So thousands of these units to make a one megaton facility work and just to give people a sense of the demand that may be out there as a country, we’re going to have to deal with 40, 50, 60 megatons of carbon capture, depending on your perspective over the next over the next decade. So we’ll need hundreds of thousands of these units, whether they come from 70 or plenty of others entering the space. How many of these can you produce in a given month? Speaker 2 [00:09:23] I’ll put it in a different way. What we’re scaling up across the street and our new manufacturing facility is going to be able to do 10 one million tonne per year capture plants every year. So if you were to think about 40 or 50 megatons in Canada around the oilsands decarbonization, then you’re talking about four or five years worth of production out of that manufacturing facility. Speaker 1 [00:09:48] We’re back in the boardroom. Thanks for the tour. Matt, tell us a bit about what sectors you think are ready to go with carbon capture and where you’re looking for acceleration. Speaker 2 [00:09:59] We’re seeing a lot of interest across the hard to beat industries, so that’s from oil and gas, petrochemicals, hydrogen generation, which we see really is a rapidly scaling market through to cement and steel industry. So we see a lot of interest across the board. And really what it comes down to is where are the projects where all of the factors are coming together? So that includes the pricing regulatory regime and also local factors like energy prices, availability of renewables, et cetera. Speaker 1 [00:10:29] We’re going to have to do a lot of this in a very short period of time. And one of the questions that’s often asked about CCU technologies is can it work at scale? You’re doing pilot projects. They seem to be working, but they’re going to have to be much bigger. Do we just have to take a chance on that because we don’t have time to gradually ratchet up what we do? And how should we get our heads around that, that big bat and all the risks that go with it? Speaker 2 [00:10:55] I think you can take smart, calculated risks in the DNA of 70 is doing everything at Gigaton scale. So even when we’re doing a small pilot plant, we’re thinking about doing it in a way that’s massively scalable. So I think when it comes to the risk of scale up, you don’t have to take wild risks. You can take really smart risks when it comes to project execution and technology. I think what we need to see to help projects move forward is to remove some of the business and commercial risk associated with the regulatory and pricing environment. We really need to see stability and strength in carbon pricing to allow a large number of these projects to take off. Speaker 1 [00:11:29] What do you say to people who say all that’s good, but doesn’t this just become a cover for more oil and gas production, which is what we ultimately need to bend the curve on? Speaker 2 [00:11:40] I understand that argument, but I think, you know, the energy transition is about four pillars in our view. So it’s about electrify as much as you can. It’s about a massive deployment of renewables. It’s about the use of hydrogen for hard to decarbonize aspects of the economy, and it has to be about carbon capture and removal. If we’re going to hit our net zero goals in 2050 or our global climate targets around 1.5 degrees Celsius, the the global energy economy is a is a complicated system with a lot of inertia. It’s not going to transition immediately tomorrow. And while we go through that transition, we need to be decarbonizing it to ensure that we’re meeting our climate goals. In today’s world, when people are focused on energy security, it’s even more important that while we’re going through that energy transition, we’re decarbonizing the fossil fuel side of the picture. Speaker 1 [00:12:28] Matt, before we get back on the road down the hydrogen highway, one last question can you remind? Food of ARTIGO was again Speaker 2 [00:12:36] spontaneous, one of the first scientists to write down on paper the connection between CO2 in the atmosphere and a warming climate, and we certainly owe him a great debt of gratitude. Speaker 1 [00:12:45] I hope someone in memoriam makes him an honorary Canadian. Thanks for your Speaker 2 [00:12:50] time. I’m certain we would do so. Thanks very much, John. Speaker 1 [00:12:57] We’re now in North Burnaby at the foot of Burnaby Mountain. The cherry blossoms are in full bloom, it’s gorgeous. And right before me next to the cherry blossoms is a big hydrogen tank. It’s part of Loop, which is the next clean tech company. We’re going to visit. They do something with fuel cells, which I don’t really understand, but hopefully after this interview, we’ll all have it figured out. Welcome to Loop. We’ll open the door and get inside. Speaker 2 [00:13:28] So I’m Rob Stevenson, director of technical services here at Leute. So what we’re looking at is two mock ups of the modules that we currently produce in this facility. So this unit up on top here, that’s a 30 kilowatt capable unit. We’ll get into some of the power rangers a little bit later in the tour and then underneath it is 60 kilowatt capable unit. What that does is if you feed it hydrogen, you feed it air and coolant circuit. It will provide that power to charge a battery bank or power vehicle. Speaker 1 [00:13:59] All right. Thanks, Rob. Let’s go inside. Go inside. Yeah. Speaker 2 [00:14:05] So this clean room is a facility that we put in about three years ago to build our stacks or stacks or the power producing unit within our fuel cell modules there, where we introduce hydrogen and oxygen into alternating series of what we call unit cells to create electricity. So those stacks are what we build inside this clean room. And the two individuals that you see in there right now are in the midst of building one and getting it ready to put it into a product. Speaker 1 [00:14:36] So a tech time out here? Can you explain what a fuel cell is and what you do with it? Speaker 2 [00:14:44] Certainly. So, yeah, fuel cells are a mix of two main components. One is the stack, which we just talked about being produced within this clean room. The other main series of components within the module are a fuel so module are called the balance of plant. The balance of plant provide all the necessary gases and fluids to keep the stacks alive and produce electricity. So we introduce hydrogen. We introduce oxygen via air. And then we create using the chemical reaction. We create electricity out of that and we remove heat. We extract heat from it using a coolant system. Speaker 1 [00:15:22] So it looks like a big box of energy, kind of a magic box energy. Speaker 2 [00:15:26] That’s a good explanation for it. Speaker 1 [00:15:28] Do I have to put hydrogen into it or does it come preloaded? Speaker 2 [00:15:32] You do. So typically, the hydrogen will be provided by a tank system that will be part of the integration work that we do when we put this unit into the hands of a customer. And they’ll have that as a high pressure gas supply that they will connect to the bulkhead fittings on the other side of the module from what you see here and keep all our integration connection points in one area to make it easier for the customer to plug and play the product into their application. Speaker 1 [00:16:00] And do customers need to go to a central depot like a hydrogen station to plug and play? Or would they have that at their own, at their own site? Speaker 2 [00:16:08] It’s yeah, it’s a very good question. The infrastructure is traditionally lagged the development of the hydrogen network, essentially, and it’s it’s been perpetual in that, but it’s really accelerating quickly that we see in places like California, places like Europe, there’s a there’s a real acceleration like almost like an inflection point has been hit here at the establishment of hydrogen fueling stations for vehicles, and that’s getting more and more play. Lots of that going on in China as well. Lots of fuel cell vehicles in operation there that are being fueled at stations. They can also be delivered to site depending on your application through industrial gas suppliers. All right. All right. Speaker 1 [00:16:50] And then I’m sorry, I’m interrupting reporting. OK, great to see you. Speaker 3 [00:16:55] Hey, John, it’s great to have you at the facilities. I’m Ben Nyland, CEO of Loop Energy. Looking forward to showing you around today. Speaker 1 [00:17:02] So we’re now walking up Burnaby Mountain to the other Office of Loop. I’ve got to pause and admire this address. It is 20 700 production way and one innovation place, which kind of says you can’t have innovation without production and you can’t have good production without innovation. So take us inside Ben. All right, Speaker 3 [00:17:24] let’s go on in. This section we’re walking through here is the engineering department. So lots of folks working here. We’re actually going to be reconfiguring this shortly to Speaker 1 [00:17:34] accommodate the Speaker 3 [00:17:35] growth that we’re getting in the employees. So this is they’re nicely spaced out now it’s going to get a little bit tighter over the next little while. Speaker 1 [00:17:41] And how many employees do you have now? Speaker 3 [00:17:43] We’re just about 100 employees at this point. And when we did our IPO last year, we were around 40. So we’ve grown quite dramatically. Speaker 1 [00:17:51] Where do you think you’ll be in a year from now? The objective is to have doubled close to double what needs to happen out there in the market for Luke to flourish for years to come? Speaker 3 [00:18:01] Well, I think the good news is that starting to happen, the fact that energy security is now aligning with climate change to provide real momentum in this direction, I think there’s been desire by governments to put in regulation. Companies want to move in this direction, but they need to see the economic benefits. And so that alignment, the fixing of the chicken and egg problem, where’s the hydrogen going to come from? You need hydrogen before fuel cells. Well, you need fuel cells to know you’re going to consume. The hydrogen is getting fixed because of the alignment of energy security and climate change. So what needs to happen is an abundant supply of hydrogen that is reasonable cost that can be accessed by those who are using fuel cell systems. And the good news is that’s happening in spades in Europe. In China, significant pushes in that direction, and we’re now starting to see that in North America, there are projects in Alberta and Ontario and Quebec to get hydrogen corridors set up. And so that momentum that’s happening in China, in Europe is now translating into North America as well. Speaker 1 [00:19:03] And you’re aiming for heavy vehicles, trucks, busses, fleet operators are going to need to make changes. They are making changes. We’ve certainly seen municipalities, for instance, lead the way. But the big fleet operators, retailers, shippers and the like are going to have to replace their fleets. What’s it going to take for them to move at scale? Speaker 3 [00:19:26] So many of them have deployed battery electric vehicles in their fleets to test those out. We’ve talked to some of the biggest fleets in the world logistics fleets. There are companies like Amazon, for instance, who have established Hydrogen Strategy Group within Amazon. And you think Amazon is a retailer? They have a huge logistics fleet. They see hydrogen as being part of that and hydrogen being a key part of the solution. So, so really, they need to see something that they can count on at scale. So that means reliability in the vehicles proving the technology. It also means being able to fuel those vehicles effectively and deploy them across the fleets. And so that’s where we when we talk to fleet operators, they really want to see vehicles that accommodate their cargo requirements that accommodate their range requirements and accommodate their operational requirements. So many of these vehicles operate 16, 17, 18 hours a day. They can’t necessarily be plugged in with batteries, right? Batteries are great in certain applications, but there are many applications where batteries don’t fit. And what we’re finding is when fleet operators are sensitive to distance to range, they’re sensitive to cargo limitations and operating hours. That’s where fuel cells really come into play. So as fuel becomes more available, as hydrogen becomes more available, they will be in a better position to scale those fleets. Speaker 1 [00:20:43] You’re a global company. Growth in Asia and Europe, China specifically. How far behind is North America? When you look at those other regions, Speaker 3 [00:20:53] well, I guess this is probably a good news. Bad news story, right? So in terms of motivation, in terms of programs, in terms of momentum, we are well behind. There are serious programs, serious amounts of money flowing in. You know, the Canadian government just announced a $9 billion program for Canada. This spread across many, many sectors. Germany, France and Spain have all announced seven eight nine billion euro programs specifically directed at hydrogen, right? And so there’s a level of focus in these other areas that we don’t have yet. So that’s kind of the bad news piece we’re well behind. But the good news is they made those decisions relatively recently. So. So China made those decisions five 10 years ago when they realized hydrogen was important to energy security. Europe has just been making those decisions in the last two or three years. And so it’s a matter of making those decisions and making those commitments and really in it from a time perspective, we’re not that far behind. And from a technology perspective, Vancouver is the cradle of fuel cell technology. We have great trucking companies in North America. Cummins is one of is possibly the leading diesel engine manufacturer in the world. Well, they own 20 percent of lube. They’re interested in this space. They just need to have certainty that the commercial offtake is going to be there when they develop those products. Speaker 1 [00:22:13] We’ve all heard for many years about the hydrogen highway. Before we go, I wonder if we can just pop over to the window and take a look at our weather event? Absolutely. You bet. Coming up after the break, our third and final stop along BC’s hydrogen highway, so stay right there. Speaker 4 [00:22:35] You’re listening to Disruptors, an RBC podcast. I’m Theresa Do. Russia’s attack on Ukraine is a defining moment for global energy markets as governments and consumers grapple with energy shortages and high gas and power bills. Climate change targets are clashing with energy security measures. Coming soon, a new RBC Economics and thought leadership report on how Canada can play a role in calming nervous oil markets in the short run and develop a framework for a competitive and decarbonize oil and gas sector for the long haul. The world’s going to need it. To learn more. Check out the link in the show notes of this episode and visit our bbc.com slash thought leadership. Speaker 1 [00:23:17] Welcome back. On today’s episode, we’re speaking with some of the innovators in the heart of BC’s Clean Tech Valley. Each in different ways working to reduce emissions across Canada. Our first stop was 70, a carbon capture company transforming both fossil fuel based electricity generation and industrial processes. And We Just left Loop Energy, which produces hydrogen fuel cell systems for the automotive and power generation sectors. On the last stop of our journey, we’ll meet a serial entrepreneur who’s bringing his passion for the open highway to the world of EVs. The team of motorcycle? Hey, hi, it’s John Stark host to seek at 2:30 Finance. Beyond these doors is the future of motorcycling. I’m going to go inside and see what that future looks like. My name is Jay Jro, and I’m the founder and CEO at Daymond Motorcycles. We do some of the development here and we do some of the development in San Rafael. We’ll go upstairs just because it’s beautiful up there. And this is the picture of the factory that’s being built in Northview, Surrey, just on the south side of the patellar bridge, two hundred and eight thousand square foot factory to build up to 40000 thousand motorbikes a year. Those motorcycles that will build at the Northview factory will be the hyperdrive based bikes, and I’ll show you guys hyperdrive downstairs. The hyperdrive system is a battery pack and a powertrain train, and it’s all the electronics and the air and a collision warning system, all in the shape of a motorcycle without wheels. And that means we can mount suspension and wheels and bodywork plastic to turn hyperdrive into any kind of motorcycle. We want a true EV platform for motorbikes. So I’m going to get you to back up literally to the day you got the dream for this. Everyone’s been talking about electric vehicles, but we always think Tesla or other cars. When did you think of an electric motorcycle? I got the idea for electric motorcycles. I guess when Vector X made an electric motorbike that was around twenty seven twenty eight, they had a really sexy looking electric motorbike. And at the time I was starting an electric car company called Ref-. So here in Vancouver, we did electric SUVs and pickup trucks that we sold to the US Army and US utility companies amidst Paladins province of B.C. in Ontario. And they were very unique EVs in that they could feed energy back into the power grid so they can be plugged into a charging station and they could push energy out of the vehicle into the power lines to balance supply and demand on the grid. But during that time, I was lusting after this Vector X company and another electric motorbike company called Mission, who we’ve since acquired at Damon. So I guess I’ve been thinking about electric motorbikes and I thought, That’s wonderful. I love writing, but that has no purpose. Like, what’s the purpose of making electric motorbikes electric? But, you know, fast forward all the way to 2016. I was in Jakarta riding a motorbike around twenty two million other daily riders, and I thought, Oh, there’s a real purpose to motorbikes being electric and of course, air quality and all of that. And then, you know, dodging trucks and crashing my motor bike on the sidewalk in in Jakarta. The safety issue became more paramount. You know, if you crash a motor bike here, it’s bad, but you’re not going to get run over by 50 more. But there is really, really bad. And so that kind of, you know, I guess over those eight years came to a realization that we need to reinvent motorcycling. OK, let’s go back downstairs. Jay, tell us about the production goals that you’ve set out. You showed us the picture of the plant that’s going up. So we’re on track to start production at the end of the year. We’ve got twenty two hundred or so orders growing at a hundred and fifty or two hundred a month. Three quarters of orders come out of the US. And of those a quarter out of California, probably not too surprising, 13 percent of North America is electric. Cars are sold into Vancouver and B.C.. And so the demand, you know, not just here but everywhere for electric vehicles is really, really high. How big do you think the market is? Oh, it’s eventually it’s 100 percent of the market. It’s enormous. I mean, it’s worldwide. It’s one hundred and forty four billion. It’s 160 million motorcycles sold annually around the world. And how many of those wish it to be electric? Not everyone, not everyone. Today, the average motorcycle customer is fifty seven years old in North America. The average Damon customer is thirty seven young people, twenty five to thirty five years old. They don’t learn how to drive cars with gears, and so they’re intimidated to drive a motorcycle with gears. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to ride a motorbike, but they expect technology. They expect system integration with their phones, they expect integration to the cloud. They expect it to be safer. They expect it to be easy. They expect it to be clean and silent as well. How is the riding experience different? Oh, that’s that. That is a long conversation. Let’s start with the old guy here. This bike we built about three years ago, and I’ll go through how the riding experience is different. I’ll start by turning it on. First, on the outside, it looks like it looks like a regular motorbike, and we designed it to look like a motor bike. But we also designed it to look powerful and fast and and to kind of blend in with other superbikes, which means you could buy one of these and not look, quote unquote weird around your buddies and their guest bikes. And the idea is that we want to draw people away from gas bikes as they are known, but to also be familiar, so futuristic but familiar. But the more obvious things is like the rearview mirror that shows me everything behind me while I ride. No motorcycle has a rearview mirror, so you now have blind spot warning without having to check over your shoulder on a motorcycle. When you look left and right because your helmet, you actually block your field of view forward. You have to take your eyes off the car ahead in order to check for a car beside you. And now you don’t with a blind spot warnings. The other thing is different in the rider experience is the forward collision warning. If there is a vehicle approaching, the handlebars are going to vibrate. There you go. If there’s a vehicle or a pedestrian approaching or a pedestrian. Crossing at a light. You’re not looking the handlebars vibrate to warn you of that potential forward collision warning, as you just saw. And then the last thing I think it makes it pretty significantly different is the bike transforms forms at the push of a button. Right now, it’s in a low crouched sport bike position. But while you ride, you can put the bike into an upright rider position. Take the weight off your back, drop your legs down, and now you can be in a more comfortable commuter style position so you can have like two bikes in one, and absolutely none of this kind of technology has ever been done before on a motorcycle. Tell us a bit more about the software. Seems is obviously software enabled machines, but it seems that’s a big area of focus for you. Think and mentioned not only the software, but what the software drives on the tail of this motorcycle. You have to seventy two gigahertz radar. You have a 10 hp wide angle camera in the front and then there’s a front radar in front camera as well. And this in the front, it’s one hundred and fifty meter radar with a 140 degree wide angle front camera, also 10 80p. So the cameras, the radars, there’s also non-visual sensors throughout the motorcycle that collectively ingest every bit of data that it can about its environment. So is the ground wet or dry? How far leaning over is the bike in terms of angle? What’s the wheel speed? What’s the tire temperature? What’s the ambient temperature outside exactly? How many centimeters away is that approaching car? All of that information is processed on the onboard air engine that air engine does onboard processing to determine that a potential vehicle threat in real time and then warn you of that threat again through the vibrating handlebars or through the lights. We are not depending on the cloud to do that processing. So even though the bike is five g connected, we don’t need that internet connection to tell you if there’s a threat. You mentioned how you were inspired in some ways by riding in Jakarta. How are you thinking about geographic opportunities since you’re probably not going to be able to scale quickly enough to serve the entire planet? So we’re focusing on North America and Europe first. We do have orders from many other places, but we’re focusing our early shipments into North America and then Europe in twenty three. And then we’re working on a third design for a different category of motor bike that comes after the hyper fighter and its siblings that will kind of widen the triangle, if you will, for us. And then we have another platform that will be a different battery chassis platform for lower cost motorcycles that that’ll first get launched in Latin America. We have a partnership down there called Taco Tacos, the largest motorcycle manufacturer in Latin America, and together we will manufacture our hyper light platform in the two to $5000 range for that very broad market Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico and so on. And then those kinds of lower cost motorcycles will be available in North America and Europe as well, and eventually into Southeast Asia. We’re doing this whole episode on clean tech and focusing on Vancouver as one of the world’s great clean tech sectors. We’ve talked to hydrogen companies, the carbon capture companies, talking to a consumer facing manufacturer. What do we need to do, J, to keep entrepreneurs like you here and to ensure that you scale from Canadian soil? Well, have babies. That’s the reason I never moved to Silicon Valley. This is my third startup. It’s my third tech startup in Vancouver and my very first one, I had my first kid and that made it pretty difficult to think about moving, which made each company so much harder than it needed to be because fundraising in Vancouver is really hard. Access to capital has gotten better slowly over these 14 years that I’ve been doing it. The talent pool in Vancouver is really good. The loyalty is really high. The diverse, clean tech talent is the other reason we wanted to manufacture in Vancouver because all the people here want a company like that to work for. They want something big to be proud of. They want to assign themselves to an OEM brand, something that they see, not just an app in your pocket, but something that you see go down the road that you can be proud of, that you see. Oh, that’s from Vancouver. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it’s been fun. Thank you, guys. This is great. What a trip. Vaughn, our audio engineer, and Jen, one of our producers and I have been driving around Greater Vancouver getting to meet these incredible companies. We’ve learned a lot about carbon capture, about hydrogen and fuel cells and about electric motorcycles. I can’t tell which company is more exciting, but it’s not really a contest because we need them all and thousands more like them to innovate and transform our economy in the years and decades ahead. The race to net zero is real, but the race among entrepreneurs to find new ways to get us there in sustainable and profitable ways is also very real, and they are ahead of the pack. At least the ones we spent time with today. I’m thinking back to Matt at 70 and what they are building and already putting in the field to capture carbon and get it back in the ground so that we can continue to use oil and gas for the foreseeable future as we develop other fuels and energy systems. From there, we went to loop and met Ben to hear about one of those new fuels hydrogen and the fuel cells that loop is building to change the way trucks and busses move around our communities and between our communities. Next time you’re on a highway, just look at those 18 wheelers and think about the fuel they’re consuming and what a way to end the journey. Jay sees the future for motorcycles, and he’s making it happen. His customers see this, and it’s why he’s getting orders from all over the world for his super bikes. That’s the kind of vision we need for the next generation of the Canadian economy entrepreneurs, operators, investors and all of us as consumers and citizens who can see things differently and get excited about it. But you know what? As excited as I get about all of these things, I know we’ve got a problem. Not all Canadians are engaged in this transition, and critically, Canada’s indigenous peoples are not being given the opportunity to lead in the way that they can to ensure that we are transforming our society and our economy, not only in more sustainable, more creative and more tech forward ways, but also in more inclusive ways. On the last episode of our climate series, we’ll meet some remarkable indigenous leaders from British Columbia who are doing just that, creating an economy and society for the future that we’ll all want to be part of. I’m John Stackhouse and this is disruptors and our BBQ podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:35:37] Disruptors an RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hi, it’s John here. I’m not in the studio today. I’m actually on the shores of Burrard Inlet staring at some of the most beautiful scenery in Canada, knowing this is the epicenter of Canada’s climate challenge. Just north of me is the North Shore Mountains, which last summer were clouded in smoke from devastating fires to the east of here devastating floods over those mountains. Was that horrific scene of listen B.C. burning to a crisp? Everyone here knows the reality in the here and now of climate change, and we’re all coming to grips with the reality of energy security. Knowing that what we pay and what we need to move around to stay warm and to stay cool is not getting any easier or cheaper by the year. I just stepped out of a conference room where Justin Trudeau was rolling out Canada’s new emissions reduction plan, which tries to balance energy security and climate security along with economic security. Can it be done when Europe is staring at the reality of a horrific war? Can it be done when consumers all around the world are struggling with inflation? Can be done when the technologies that we know we’re going to need to get to net zero aren’t really in our hands yet. These are some of the questions that we’ve been wrestling with at disruptors, and we’re going to try to find answers to over the next three episodes. Join me as we meet innovators and disruptors from all over Canada who are trying to navigate this new challenge. They know this beautiful corner of Canada and all of our communities hang in the balance. This is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. I’m John Stackhouse. On today’s episode, we’re talking with some of Canada’s biggest thinkers on climate and energy security. Each year in Vancouver for the annual Globe Conference, the conference kicked off with a splashy announcement that Canada would now aim to cut emissions by 42 percent in the oil and gas sector by 2030. But how do we get there? How do we reconcile our climate and energy goals? That may seem like a challenge of today, but it’s also a challenge we’ve seen in decades past and students of history are looking back in time to the last big shock to global energy markets. Among those looking back to the future is Peter Tertzakian of the Arc Energy Research Institute in Calgary and noted author on energy trends. I caught up with Peter on the floor of the conference. Peter, hey, how you doing, John? Peter. Let’s start with the long view history. Fifty years ago, the IEA launches. We’re now facing another energy crisis. Same or different? Speaker 2 [00:03:04] Well, there’s a lot of eerie similarities. And in the 1973 energy crisis was a consequence of military conflicts in the Middle East, the Yom Kippur War. We were in the midst of a Cold War or adversary was the Soviet Union, which was Russia. Today, we have prices spiking oil prices in the face of excess demand. And so there’s a lot of areas similarities. The only difference was, you know, rather than us sanctioning other countries, we were effectively sanctioned with the Arab oil embargo. And so, yeah, the circumstances were different. But in the end, there was a price spike and actual shortages of vital fuels for the economy dominantly of oil. That led to the formation of the International Energy Agency, whose core mission was to restore energy security. Speaker 1 [00:03:54] There was a climate movement back then, smaller than it is now, but the Brundtland Commission had just done its piece, and the world was aware of some of the challenges, not to the degree we are now. Clearly, the tension between energy and climate, if there was one, then energy one out. Today, we also have a tension between energy and climate, right? Speaker 2 [00:04:15] Will this play out? Well, actually, so I think some lessons from the past don’t. Environment as a broader umbrella has always been a force of change. In the words of energy, you can go back centuries in terms of, you know, all the way from denuded forests to all sorts of issues. There were big environmental drivers in the 1970s, including smog, leaded gasoline, ozone layer, you name it. Eventually, I think the later 70s acid rain and so on and so forth. So energy and environment have always been closely linked. And that environment is a force of change to transition. However, it is an insufficient force of change, in my opinion, to take you to where you want to go as fast as possible. That’s where the energy crises come in. And unfortunately, very unfortunately, it takes a crisis to bring about the force of change, which is very powerful and that is energy security and affordability or lack thereof. Speaker 1 [00:05:12] So are these crises competing or supportive? Speaker 2 [00:05:16] Well, that’s a great question in the near term that are competing the way the script plays out in the near-term. When you have a crisis like this, do you have to scramble to satisfy societal needs for these vital energy commodities for heat mobility ET? And so the first response is typically a regression. Oil and natural gas is oil too expensive to burn? What am I going to burn out here is coal. It’s cheaper on this. Are burning coal emissions go up for environment? And so the first phase is always regressive. That’s the phase we’re in right now as we record this podcast. But eventually as the fog of war and the fog of the crisis sort of settles down of it, then you start to see the policies coming out, OK, we’ve got a change and now you double down. Obviously, in Europe, they’re already doubling down because they’re at the heart of the crisis. We have yet to see it here, in my opinion, really in North America and other parts of the world because, you know, we’re fairly shielded. Yeah, for the price of gasoline, up 50 percent. It’s a nuisance for a lot of people, but we’re an affluent country. But of course, up three or four times, that’s a big deal. Speaker 1 [00:06:16] What lessons should we reflect on from the 1970s to do things differently so that we find more of a balance between environmental concerns and energy security concerns? Speaker 2 [00:06:27] Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ll tell you why, because as I reflect on this, this is almost half a century. Forty eight years since the formation of the IEA and that first price shocks, and here we are, back to square one. We’ve doubled oil consumption and production emissions are keep going up, and we’ve had several mini crises in between. But it’s not like 1991, the Gulf War 2003 invasion of Iraq. We have the lead up to the financial crisis and the price spike. Don’t we ever learn? I have not. Heard anything in any of these policies about how to put in like a ratchet so you don’t go backwards once inevitably. You know, as I said, the fog of the crisis sort of clears our supply chains improve over the next few years. But if that means that the price of oil, gas, coal etc goes down, then there’s sort of the sense, false sense of energy security again. If you go back to the 70s in Europe, what they did was they actually put in fairly aggressive fuel taxes and they did not allow the price of the fuels to go down. And they that was also an impetus to build out a lot of mass transit, high speed rail, etc., etc. Now we don’t have the luxury as much in Canada because of our vast geography and low population density. But there’s also an educational component to this that the demand side, in other words, a consumer has to participate in the transition. And overwhelmingly, the dialog over the last 50 years has been How do we deal with transitioning the supply side? I think now again, we have to see how do we get people’s mindsets to think differently because I don’t think that part of it’s been addressed. Speaker 1 [00:08:09] One of the ideas that struck me from my conversation with Peter is from decades past that energy usually trumps climate or environmental issues when it comes to a political decision. Voters think about the here and now. They think about cost of living, and that’s playing out in the world today in many different places. But a big difference today is there are many more choices for energy, and the cost of some of those choices continues to go down. So while we see a significant spike in prices for fossil fuels, particularly, there’s more options for all of us. And it’s the consumer that’s all of us who has a major part to play in Canada’s energy transition. But there’s little doubt that the suppliers, the Big Oil and gas producers are also the ones who have to think differently. As Peter put it, one of them who’s thinking differently is Susanna Pierce, the president and country chair of Shell Canada. She understands the challenges ahead better than most. We caught up with her next. Susanna, great to see you. Speaker 3 [00:09:11] Good to see you, John. Speaker 1 [00:09:12] So much has changed since The Last Globe Forum. It’s dizzying to think about pandemic war, economic disruption and so much more. How has all of that changed your net zero thinking? Speaker 3 [00:09:27] One of the interesting things about net zero for us is when we talk about it and when we commit to it, it’s scope one, two and three. So it’s the emissions which we create. When we produce energy, it’s emissions we cause to be created because of electricity consumption or state or steam or heat. But it’s also the emissions of our customers and that’s what we call Scope three. And 90 percent, the emissions we need to tackle are our customers. It’s. And that’s really difficult because we can control scope one and two to a larger extent and three. But with that in mind and that target in mind, you know, with the pandemic happening and now certainly with the challenges of war in Ukraine, it certainly does increase the complexity. I would say, and I think it increases, you know, the challenges we have to work with all the parties we need to to get to that commitment of net zero by 2050. Having said that, though, it doesn’t change the commitment. The commitment is there. We have a commitment to achieve net zero by 2050 with what we see happening in terms of the war and the disruption in the energy markets and of course, what’s happened in the rebound since the pandemic. All it really suggests is that the challenges are real. This isn’t a simple solution, and I think those who have suggested the easiest way to get to net zero is just to cut. Fossil fuels are clearly it’s not the answer because we see what happens when you cut the ability of consumers to get natural gas or oil, and they suffer from that. And we are suffering to an extent where you see prices, where they are. So in short, there’s no easy solution, but that just means it just means we all have to work together and that no lever should be off the table. Speaker 1 [00:11:00] What do you say to those people who would take issue with that position and perhaps argue that high prices, shortages, rationing even is going to drive us to change faster and adopt and scale the replacement technologies? Speaker 3 [00:11:14] Well, I would say I probably don’t disagree that high prices will incentivize some to say, Well, let’s move more quickly to energy security that doesn’t depend on fossil fuel imports. And I think that’s a very important thing to keep in mind, and we should look to see what we can do to lean in and and maybe continue to press towards lower carbon solutions, renewable energy solutions that don’t require imports from unstable areas. But there’s a cost, and we’re experiencing that right now, so it can’t. It has to be in a way that recognizes, well, we want to make that transition. We do need to think about the now and the now really needs to be providing the energy that customers need because of the energy the customers need is too expensive. Then they’re having to make some choices and for. Customers, some of whom it’s a choice between putting food on their table or paying their energy bills, for some industry, it’s a choice of keeping a factory open or shutting it down. So we need to be very thoughtful about how quickly we move. But I would say to those that say it just means we need to double down while I don’t disagree, but we have to be mindful of the impact that has and address all along the way. Speaker 1 [00:12:15] I have to think about both. Yeah, we do. Scope three is really all of us. It’s what we consume. It’s how we get through our lives in a comfortable and meaningful way. And many people are struggling with energy security, not just at a national level, but at a household level and trying to balance that with what I might call climate security released climate stability. How are we going to ensure that people have energy security and climate security? Speaker 3 [00:12:45] Well, you know, I fundamentally believe in when you say Scope three, I mean, scope three is our customers emissions. But if I’m the customer go three, I’m still one. Those are my emissions that I’m. I’m producing what I drive my car when I consume energy. And so I think fundamentally each one of us has to ask, You know, how much energy do I need? Are there ways that I can reduce my energy consumption? Because energy efficiency and energy reduction to an extent is one way of reducing emissions and increasing to an extent energy security because you don’t need as much of it. So we have to start with what can I do to be more efficient with the energy that I use? But there will come a point, of course, where it becomes a very difficult choice between again, food on the table shutting a factory down. And so in the short term, I think what we have to do is find ways of accelerating the energy supply where it’s needed. And as much as we can, can we find ways of accelerating the decarbonization as well? So we know in the short term we will continue to need a short to medium term. We’ll still need fossil fuels because so much of our energy system runs on fossil fuels. But what can we do to decarbonize the fuel system? So what can we do, for example, to decarbonize fuel use and carbon capture sequestration? So can we capture emissions in carbon capture sequestration, which again creates an emissions reduction while we look to produce the fuels that the energy system needs? What can we do to increase the amount of renewable biodiesel renewable fuels that again can reduce the amount of carbon that is in the fuel system using the fuel infrastructure that we have today? So I think there’s a combination here of recognizing the energy system runs on fossil fuels. Today, we can decarbonize the fossil fuels that we have by using carbon capture, sequestration, renewable fuels, hydrogen while we look to transition the types of renewable infrastructure that we will need, such as EVs such as hydrogen vehicles and all the rest of it. So there’s a pathway, Speaker 1 [00:14:35] and Shell is a critical player on that on that pathway. The Canadian government has unveiled its emissions reduction plan, including in anticipation of a 40 percent reduction in net emissions for your sector by 2030. How are you going to do it? Speaker 3 [00:14:53] What I see in the emissions reduction plan is that government has recognized that there are challenges for the private sector and making investments that are not economic. So what do we need? What I see and that at first glance, is that they’re looking at how do I drive carbon tax price certainty? That’s important because I’m making an investment on a certain carbon tax. I want to know that it will be there because if we reduce the carbon tax, then all of a sudden those investments may not be economic. They’re looking at addressing some of the regulatory uncertainty. So we have the clean fuel standard. But how do we make sure again that we will be able to generate the credits? So I think the plan at this point recognizes the challenges. It doesn’t mean, again, it’s going to be simple, but it does mean that if we can work with customers so we can work with producers and across the entire value chain, we’ve got a better shot than I think we ever have had. Speaker 1 [00:15:38] I think it’s safe to say very few expected energy markets to be where they are today and to see where Canada’s places in the energy world. As Susanna noted, We can’t think of Canada in isolation. We are part of a global economy and part of a global society. And that’s the challenge the Canadians need to come to grips with. Coming up after the break, we’ll have more disruptors climate conversations from Vancouver. So stay right there. Speaker 4 [00:16:07] You’re listening to Disruptors and RBC podcast. I’m Theresa Do. Russia’s attack on Ukraine is a defining moment for global energy markets as governments and consumers grapple with energy shortages and high gas and power bills. Climate change targets are clashing with energy security measures. Coming soon, a new RBC Economics and thought leadership report on how Canada can play a role in calming nervous oil markets in the short run and develop a framework for a competitive and decarbonized oil and gas sector for the long haul. The world is going to need it to learn more. Check out the link in the show notes of this episode and visit our bbc.com slashed thought leadership. Speaker 1 [00:16:50] Welcome back. We’re talking with some of the big thinkers and innovators in the energy sector here in Vancouver to figure out how we can accelerate Canada’s transition to a lower emissions economy. One of the big questions that seems to be coming up repeatedly is whether Canadian oil and gas through technology and innovation can be both low emissions and globally competitive. To get more perspective on that. I talked with my colleague Colin Guldimann, an economist with RBC Economics and thought leadership and principal author of our research on the climate transition. Colin, you’ve let our research on climate through a number of reports. How do you thread the needle in your mind in terms of the the contradiction? Some would see it between higher emissions as a result of greater oil and gas production, balancing that with not only the need, but now the declared intention of the country to reduce emissions by 40 percent with respect to the oil and gas sector. Speaker 5 [00:17:47] So I’ll start just by noting that the government’s plan to reduce emissions in the oil and gas sector does account for some growth of production through to 2030. Or at least that’s what their forecasts suggest. And I think the story here is really that there are a lot of technological solutions that already exist in the oil and gas space to cut, for example, methane emissions, which are highly polluting and warming the atmosphere more quickly than carbon dioxide. But I think the fundamental question here is Canada’s role as an oil and gas producer going forward, not just to 2030, but also to 2050. As we make these investments to decarbonize the sector, are we doing those in a way that has a view towards maintaining the competitiveness of the sector in 2050, when so much is still left uncertain about where prices will be, where production will be and where demand will be in 2050? If you look at the landscape now, you think, OK, planes really hard to decarbonize, so we’ll need oil for jet fuel, we’ll need oil for petrochemicals and plastics and all these other non-combustion uses. The IEA has a great report out that suggests demand in a net zero world could still be 25 million barrels a day. Canada’s production around five million barrels a day. Why shouldn’t Canada be an oil and gas producer with 20 percent market share? So that’s the question. Can we fight for that last barrel? And if we decarbonize the sector smartly with an eye to cost and competitiveness, I don’t see a reason why that shouldn’t be the case. Speaker 1 [00:19:13] As Colin explained, We can have both climate security and energy security, but it’s going to cost us how much is still to be determined and the cost may be more than economic. We’re going to need to think through abatement technologies that allow us to continue to produce oil and gas, at least for the foreseeable future, but also new energy technologies both for production and consumption that allow us to literally rewire much of our economy. Just how feasible is that? Who better to answer that than Linda Cody? Linda is the executive director of the Pembina Institute, a think tank advocating for a clean energy transition. She also has a lot of experience in the energy sector, having worked as chief sustainability officer for Enbridge and as vice president of sustainability for the 2010 Vancouver Olympics. Linda can take some credit for this magnificently green convention center. The greatest part of the city’s waterfront. Here’s part of our conversation, and thanks so question is. Energy security vs. climate security. So let me, Linda, start out with a broad question. Many people are thinking about this choice anew because of global events and markets, energy security versus climate security. Is it a versus or is it possible to have both? Speaker 6 [00:20:31] Well, it needs to be an and I’m sure others have said this to you. It needs to be an end and not an order. Although I think it’s probably correct that historically, you know, and when there’s been a competition between those two values and priorities, security has obviously always trumped because people need access to energy and the energy needs to be affordable. But this time around, there’s just a lot more at stake here. And so we got to somehow translate the order into an end, and that’s going to be a big challenge for Canadians, especially. Speaker 1 [00:21:08] I think you’re a great student of society. What do you see out there that gives you confidence that we will be able to approach this and we’re ready as a society to approach this differently. Speaker 6 [00:21:19] I see good leadership. I see good leadership on the part of government today with the release of the emissions reduction plan, the new Canadian Plan, which is much more detailed than anything we’ve ever done before. But I also see good leadership in communities among cities, in business, in industry and indigenous communities and in the nonprofit NGO sector. So that’s where I would be hopeful that there will be good leadership and that that. Leadership will be able to navigate the complexities of the tradeoffs involved here. Speaker 1 [00:21:54] How can we help society show leadership at home in terms of all of our own activities, because many people see the price of gas or the price of heating their home and they’re saying, I just can’t afford this, I need somehow to get more of conventional energy sources so I pay less and maybe someone else can address the mega challenge of of climate. Speaker 6 [00:22:18] I guess it’s how it’s framed to them, right? And that’s where leadership can make a difference. You know, definitely Canadians care about these issues. And yes, energy has to be affordable. But at this point in Canada, we aren’t experiencing what they’re experiencing in Europe, although it could come here, and that’s the uncertainty that we’re facing right now. Speaker 1 [00:22:39] Yeah, I guess I’m premising the question on the kind of survey that shows people are willing to pay, you know, a couple of hundred dollars a year for climate action, but they don’t want to pay a lot more than that. And some of these things are expensive for new electric vehicle costs more than a conventional one. Speaker 6 [00:22:57] Yeah, not really funny. And not definitely. Not everybody is in the category where they can afford an electric vehicle. But I think we’re all in the category that we can see the costs of not acting on some of the climate challenges that are out here. And we’re in British Columbia today, and this is a province that in the last 10 months has been battered. It’s really coming home here to people in ways that it hasn’t before is so individual choices count. But really, the choices made by governments and business and cities count a lot more riots. So that’s the level at which I think people have to get together around this new Canadian climate plan. And because it certainly isn’t, it won’t work if it’s all up to the federal government to do it. So it is a call to action. And I think there’s some reason to hope that Canadians will act on this. Speaker 1 [00:23:50] Well, to make it happen to make the climate plan a reality, we’re going to need a lot more electricity and it needs to be clean or green electricity from renewable sources. We know how to do that, but we’re going to have to do it at a scale and speed that we’ve never done, certainly in our lifetime to be able to run a country that has 50 percent new vehicles by the end of this decade as electric vehicles. I’m curious what you think we need to come to grips with as a country in terms of really getting going at a meaningful speed and scale to get to those 2030 goals? Speaker 6 [00:24:32] Well, demand for the electricity will obviously be part of it, right? But greater cross territorial and provincial collaboration around electricity is obviously going to be key. And that’s where I think that indigenous communities also come into the equation as well on electricity. It’s going to be a much bigger lift for us than it is in the US to get to a 20 35 net zero grid. So it’s going to take new investment mechanisms, new shared infrastructure, new relationships, hopefully in the North American context. Hopefully we’re not just talking about an East-West grid here. Hopefully, it can be a North-South grid and we can take advantage of some of that speed and scale and scope and speed Speaker 1 [00:25:19] scale, scope three critical words for this conversation. You hear it across the energy sector. Everyone agrees the future will include more renewables. The real challenge is how big, how bold and how fast are we moving today? If you ask Marion Smith, she’d say not fast enough. Marin is executive director of Clean Energy Canada, a Vancouver based organization aiming to accelerate Canada’s clean energy transition through original research dialog and public engagement. And as you’re about to hear, Marin is encouraged by what she sees in the renewable space and the promise for innovative clean tech solutions to get us to net zero. Marin Many people are thinking a little bit differently about the climate challenge than they might have say six months ago. Given global events and what’s happening in markets due to energy prices, how do you think about things differently, if at all? Given how the world has changed, Speaker 7 [00:26:16] I’d say what’s going on in Ukraine right now has really brought to our attention the fact that there isn’t energy security when we are dependent on fossil fuels. And so we see Europe saying, well, we’re in a crisis crunch right now for getting more gas and oil. In fact, we’re going to double down and move faster on shifting to renewable energy because that provides a nation’s security. You can produce your own renewable energy, and the cost of renewable energy have dropped significantly 90 percent for things like. Solar wind also significant drops and the kind of the lynchpin is the batteries, because we know that wind and solar are intermittent. The battery costs have dropped as well. So when I look at recent events that have happened in Europe and really the crisis around energy, we are now seeing that the transition to clean renewable energy that can be created locally in many places is part of the solution. And I think we’re going to see that accelerate, including things like hydrogen as one of the energy sources. Billions and billions of dollars have already been spent in Canada dealing with climate crisis. So we need to accelerate. We know that climate change is accelerating faster than we expected. I think what we’re seeing already in the electric vehicle space shows us actually when the companies get behind it and see that this is where the world is going. We have seen dozens of new makes and models come out, including some of Canadians. Favorite cars like the Ford F-150 is coming out with an electric version. We’re seeing other trucks SUVs coming out with as electric models in the next few years. So I think that once business sees the opportunity and we’re experiencing that, that’s why the price of solar wind batteries have all dropped just because industry is seeing that this is where the world is going and they are developing the products there. So when we talk about energy security, actually this energy transition is going to take us to a more secure future. But it’s not just energy security, it’s economic security. Speaker 1 [00:28:29] Depending on your projection, we’re going to need to double, maybe even triple our electricity supply over the next couple of decades. Where’s that going to come from? Is it all wind and solar? Will we need more hydro nuclear? What are the sources we’re going to need to invest in? Speaker 7 [00:28:46] Yeah. So electricity is something that Canada is good at. We already have over 80 percent zero emission grid. You know, we have huge, enormous potential resources. Alberta and Saskatchewan are the leaders in solar resources and is on par with places like Florida, even Vancouver. Rainy Vancouver has the same amount of solar energy as Germany. But this is where innovation comes in. This is where I’m going to be excited to see what comes. Solar and wind are clearly cheap sources of renewable energy at this point. Are we going to see solar roofing tiles? Are we going to see solar windows in buildings, geothermal? Where is that going to fit into the mix of things? I’m not sure that we’re going to see either nuclear or large scale hydro because of the cost, because there are other energies now in renewable energies that are so much cheaper. But there are there will be places where those energies are important and do you need to be part of the mix? I think what is exciting to me is what is going to happen in this space going forward because with the potential to double or triple our electricity in Canada, I think we’re going to see some creative new ideas. Speaker 1 [00:30:05] I’m back outside overlooking Burrard Inlet. The clouds have rolled in, the rain is sprinkling, we’ve heard over this episode the enormous challenges and opportunities Canada faces in the climate transition. We’ve never done anything like this as a country, certainly not at the speed and scale that we’re going to need to take on the transition in the coming years. Electric vehicles, hydrogen, food production, housing, everything has going to have to evolve, but faster. We’re all going to have to change the way we make things, the way we consume things, the way we sell things to the world. Great opportunity for those who get it right. Our research from RBC Economics suggests we’re going to need to mobilize $80 billion a year to make that happen. That’s about four times what we spend and invest now in transition-related activities. But the capital is there. The public desire is there. Increasingly, the public policy is there, and the ambition in many businesses is there. How are we going to do it? How are we going to balance energy security and climate security? Well, it’s possible, but it’s going to take a lot of innovation. That’s what we’re going to chase in our next episode. We’re going to meet some of Canada’s great cleantech innovators and hear about what they’re doing, how they’re building differently and how they see the future as an exciting one for all of us. I’m John Stackhouse and This is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:31:45] Disruptors, and RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our rbc dot com slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hi, it’s John here. Speaker 2 [00:00:04] And it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:05] So, Theresa, I’ve got to start with a personal question. What did you have for lunch today and do you remember what it cost? Speaker 2 [00:00:11] It was a packaged salad from the grocery store and it cost about five dollars, which is about the same price it usually is, although the amount of greens I got was much less than I remember. I feel like every trip to the grocery store just hurts my wallet a little bit more, and I feel like I’m making more trips more often. Speaker 1 [00:00:28] It’s one of the stories for almost everyone on the planet in 2022. Rising food prices. Of course, there’s a number of factors global inflation, supply chain disruption, the horrific war in Ukraine. But we’re seeing whole countries. I’m thinking of Sri Lanka and Pakistan going into political crises because of this and other countries like Yemen and Somalia unable to get wheat, or Brazil where farmers are struggling for fertilizer. So this is a massive global challenge that everyone is feeling Speaker 2 [00:00:57] pretty much every day. That’s right. And meanwhile, in Canada, food price inflation is up seven percent compared to last year. And by our RBC’s count, it means that the average household is spending at least $500 more on groceries and fruit this year and likely closer to $1000. And that’s thanks to meet cost. It’s much more expensive than it was last year. I definitely do not see myself having a barbecue feast anytime soon. John, you recently spent some time in B.C. and met with farmers and agricultural leaders while you were there. What did you Speaker 1 [00:01:27] learn? Yeah, I got to travel. It’s quite remarkable to be on an airplane again, but I was in Vancouver and then went up the Fraser Valley to Abbotsford, which people will remember was the center of devastating floods last year, and the impact is still very much felt. You can see fields of blueberry bushes and crops still ruined. And you know, one farmer told me about his struggle to get his cattle back on the farm. He had moved them out for a cow sitting, I guess you’d call it somewhere and he can’t get them back because all the housing for his farm workers has been destroyed. So it’s going to be a long time for recovery. And that, of course, is hard enough for the farmers and people of the Fraser Valley. But it’s having a ripple effect well beyond there in terms of prices Speaker 2 [00:02:16] at seeing all that damage firsthand and must have really struck a chord and really doesn’t leave us well positioned for future needs with population growth. We’re going to have a billion more people to feed in just a matter of a few years, and we’ll have to produce so much more food than we do now and find ways to do that with lower emissions. It’s increasingly a global crisis, this food insecurity. So what can be done? Speaker 1 [00:02:36] This may be Canada’s greatest opportunity of the 2020s to produce more food, to export more food for a hungry and divided world, and somehow to do that with fewer emissions. It’s kind of our space race. I got to meet some interesting AG tech producers when I was in B.C., and we’ll talk to one of these real innovators in the space. This is disruptors the 10 minute take. Today, we’re joined by Dave Dinesen, founder and CEO at Kubik Farms. Dave, welcome to the 10 minute take. Speaker 3 [00:03:08] John, great to be here. Speaker 1 [00:03:09] Dave, let’s start with the problem that you’re trying to solve. What? What is Speaker 3 [00:03:12] it? So Cubic Farms is a local chain agtech company, and we develop technologies that let you grow commercial scale amounts of food for people and actually feed for livestock as well. And you can do it locally, anywhere on Earth, 12 months a year and at commercial scale. Speaker 1 [00:03:29] And how does this play out? Can I have a feedlot in my backyard with this kind of technology? Speaker 3 [00:03:34] Well, this technology really is ideal for commercial scale, so our cubicle farm technology grows, for example, salad products and other leafy green type products. And it’s really designed to be next to a distribution center that’s already going to grocery stores or other communities anyway as it grows an enormous amount of produce in a relatively small amount of space. So instead of having to bring truckloads of salad products in from California or Arizona, we can now grow at commercial scale right across the country and near major centers. Speaker 2 [00:04:06] And Dave, what makes this technology a viable alternative or supplement to traditional farming? Speaker 3 [00:04:11] So the real thing that enables that is it’s very energy efficient. So we can grow a lot of produce indoors 12 months a year in a completely contained environment. And we’re leveraging LED lighting technology and we’ve built an enterprise platform that lets us manage the growing cycle so that you can literally get the most amount of food possible out of the smallest amount of space, energy, water and labor, which all of these things have to be combined. And then you can do that locally so that you don’t have to import it anymore and then no more pesticides and herbicides and things like that. So they’re delicious. They’re good for you, and they’re much better for the environment. Speaker 1 [00:04:53] Most Canadians probably don’t appreciate that, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of our overall emissions can. Be attached to food production and distribution, so we need to think through how, in fact we do produce, distribute and consume food in a more sustainable way. I’m intrigued that you mentioned the challenge of imported, especially vegetables and fruits, because as food security becomes more of an issue of national security in a lot of countries, we may not be able to depend on the global movement of food as we have in years, even decades past, which means we in Canada are going to need to scale things like vertical farming pretty quickly. Dave, what will be some of the big challenges in scaling up what you’re doing? Speaker 3 [00:05:38] I think that the technology now exists and it is ready for prime time. So because we are now able to grow at commercial scale locally and produce vegetables at a price that is very similar to importing them on a cost per meal basis because you have far less waste and things like that, it is now ready for prime time. So some of the things that I think Canada can do is make the regulations be much more friendlier to enable this. So just for example, we gave, you know, subsidies for green energy. We should be providing subsidies or land use permits to enable this type of farming to happen and happen quickly. If we’re going to invest in a windmill, we’re going to invest in solar. We should be investing in the infrastructure that lets us grow our food locally. And so government policy is going to be absolutely key in having that happen. Speaker 2 [00:06:30] And Dave, what are the types of crops and produce that can be grown with that today? Speaker 3 [00:06:34] So within the cubic farm environment, we grow all of the solid products herbs, microgreens, lettuces, those sorts of things. And our hydro green technology grows live green animal feeds. So literally growing grazing land fodder indoors so that you can feed dairy cow beef cow 12 months a year with fresh green feed and the animals would not only perform better, you use a fraction of the water less than five percent of the water, but the animals that actually emit significantly less methane because they’re able to absorb that feed much more efficiently. So the technology is ready. We just need to support it. I think as a country and get behind it. Speaker 1 [00:07:13] Dave, does this change the geography of food production and farming? Are we going to have food production essentially, if not in our backyards, at least in our communities or closer to our big population centers? Speaker 3 [00:07:25] We need to have it close to our big population centers because we can’t keep doing what we’re doing. California is in a mega drought and it can’t keep exporting all of its freshwater in the form of produce. We’re going to have to do that locally. We can’t keep burning all those fossil fuels transporting all of this food locally. So there’s a food security, a localization and environmental. And then of course, people don’t want to be eating things like pesticides with their food. And so to be able to address all of these issues with this technology. The good news is, is it doesn’t have to cost more. It’s available now and it is time to scale up and we have to do something. One of the things that you mentioned earlier, Teresa, was that we’re going to have a billion more people with our population is going to nearly double in the next 40 years. But as a planet, we’re already using 100 percent of the world’s freshwater that’s available for human consumption and agriculture. We’re using all of our farmlands now, but we’re losing farmlands to soil exhaustion, climate change, urban creep, all of these things. So we’ve got to be able to do far more with the water in the land that we have, and we can’t just keep importing things from far away. So all of these things have come together at this moment. Speaker 2 [00:08:37] What do you think consumers should be thinking about when it comes to their choices? And how do we get them to adopt a more local model? Speaker 3 [00:08:43] Well, the good news is, is that it’s actually better tasting. So I don’t really think there’s many barriers other than now creating enough volume locally of locally grown produce and getting it into the existing supply chains that already exist. So I don’t think it’s going to be that difficult to make the switch. We just need to have enough of it grown locally and people will happily switch because boy, once you taste something that’s come out of a cubic form, you can’t go back. Speaker 1 [00:09:12] Dave, you’re making me want to have a salad like you did for lunch. But for now, thanks for being on the 10 minute take. My pleasure. Speaker 2 [00:09:20] So, John, the future of indoor farming looks extremely promising, and it takes advantage of our underutilized industrial complexes on the periphery of our cities. That sounds like a great idea to me, especially in the face of more volatile, growing seasons and all the other reasons we’ve just talked about more consistent crops, more nutrient rich foods, better tasting foods, lower carbon footprints. What’s not to like? Speaker 1 [00:09:40] Well, I’m also thinking about the export opportunity of the technologies that are involved. We we tend to think of food exports as being tankers full of grains and other food products, but maybe we’ll be supplying AG technology to the world in the decades to come and helping people wherever they may live produce. Their own food more sustainably. Maybe there’s a future episode in there for us, but for this week, that’s the 10 minute take Speaker 2 [00:10:05] and join us again next week for episode one of our special three part climate series. Until then, I’m Theresa Do. Speaker 1 [00:10:12] and I’m John Stackhouse. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:10:17] Disruptors: The 10 minute take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hi, it’s John here, Speaker 2 [00:00:03] and it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:04] Theresa, our last episode was about travel, so maybe we can kick off with the travel question. Have you ever been to the big nickel in Sudbury? Speaker 2 [00:00:12] I have, but it was during the pandemic and it was closed when I got there, so I just stood out in the rain for a few minutes, marveling at it. What’s it like inside? Speaker 1 [00:00:21] Well above ground. There is the big nickel. Great for selfies, but the real treasure is below ground. So you’ve got to go back because the trip underground is a true Canadian experience in those shafts in that ore body used to come 90 percent of the world’s nickel. And it made Canada a mining power over the past century, century and a half. In fact, entire world wars were fought in some ways with Canadian nickel, and out of that ore body came great companies like Gingko and Falcon Bridge. But here we are in the 2020s, nickel is again a thing, as we’ve all seen in the headlines, enormous chaos and volatility in nickel markets because another significant nickel power Russia is being cut off from world markets. That’s going to have a big impact for Canada as a nickel supplier, but also for a lot of disruptors and innovators out there in the tech space, including EV manufacturers who rely on nickel. Speaker 2 [00:01:18] But that is fascinating. What a timeline of Nicole’s prominence in Canadian history. And it does help inform our conversation today. Speaker 1 [00:01:27] Welcome to disruptors, the 10 minute take where we dove into the latest innovation, tech and economic buzz. Speaker 2 [00:01:33] This week’s take is on the nickel market chaos of the last few weeks. Prices soared to record highs. Trading on the world’s largest venue stopped, then restarted and then was hit with glitches. It’s been one of the most extreme events ever seen in the metals markets, Speaker 1 [00:01:46] and to help us better understand what’s going on, we’re joined by Sam Crittendon, mining analyst at RBC Capital Markets here in Toronto. Sam, welcome to the 10 minute take. Speaker 3 [00:01:55] Yeah, thanks for having me. Speaker 1 [00:01:56] Great to have you on the podcast. So Sam, first explain quickly the chaos what on Earth went on over the last few weeks in nickel? Speaker 3 [00:02:04] Yeah. So two weeks ago, you saw a perfect storm in the nickel market. It was already tight. You had low inventories. There were several supply disruptions over the last two years which got us to this place. All the while demand has been extremely strong given governance, stimulus and everything else. You’ve seen strong demand for hard goods, appliances that a big consumer of nickel. And so with that as a backdrop, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it layered on another element to this tightness in the market. And with that said, you had Singh Shen, who also happens to be one of the biggest suppliers of nickel, held a large short position on the LME exchange. And so what happened is the price started to rise. They scrambled to try to cover their short, and that results in a massive spike in the prices. So the price was hovering at around $10 a pound, spiked up to about forty five dollars a pound. So a massive move in one day forced the LME exchange to halt trading for several days, actually before they were able to unwind some of these trades. And they’re just now trying to get the market to be back into a normal state. The price is still extremely volatile. It’s been up and down 15 percent a day the last couple of days, and it’s starting to find a range at around $15. But to put that in context, the five year average before that was 840. So we’re basically double what we’ve been considering a normal nickel price the last five years. Speaker 1 [00:03:33] And so it’s this same, a new normal that we’ve had a reset and what would be the fundamentals behind that? Speaker 3 [00:03:39] Yeah. So I think the fundamentals were supporting something around $10. And I think ultimately you’ll get back to something at that level. There probably is a structural component to this. I mean, it depends on for all these commodities, how much of that Russian material finds its way into other markets, whether it’s China, India or other countries that are willing to accept that. And the reality is a lot of that Russian material does go into China on a normal basis, but nobody is willing to ship it. Nobody’s willing to insure it or finance those transactions. So just the logistics become that much more complicated. So there may be a structural component. So to answer your question directly, we are probably living in a world of higher nickel prices for now, but probably not 15 16. Forty five dollars, but maybe 10, 11, 12 is where the price settles out. Speaker 2 [00:04:29] So Russia’s invasion of Ukraine sparked fears of supply constraints, especially given that they produce 15 to 20 percent of a high grade nickel required for EV batteries, which is increasingly in demand as the world shifts towards net zero. Does the world have enough nickel to meet this growing demand? Speaker 3 [00:04:46] Yeah. So to unpack that a little bit. First, a lot will depend on where that 10 percent from Russia ends up. And if it does continue to go into China, then you probably end up in a similar spot where we were before the invasion. Over time, though, the. We’re seeing an electric vehicles, and it’s happening year over year. I mean, this year is expected to basically double from last year in terms of the demand needed for electric vehicles, and that is going to be very significant over the next 10 years. I mean, on our estimates this year, we have electric vehicles that are about, you know, 10 percent of global nickel demand, whereas by 2030 that could grow to about 30 percent of the nickel consumption globally. So all the while, stainless is expected to remain strong. So that requires new sources of nickel that need to come from somewhere. Speaker 1 [00:05:34] Where’s that? Some are going to be Sam. Are we seeing a nickel rush like we’re seeing with lithium and other minerals that are going to be needed for the energy transition? Yeah. Speaker 3 [00:05:43] What’s interesting with Nikola? It’s a bit unique. So as you saw the last time nickel spiked back in around 2007, you saw the development of nickel pig iron, which you’ve probably heard of and sort of capped the price for almost 10 years. And that is taking low grade deposits, lower quality nickel and upgrading it just enough to be usable in the stainless steel application. So what you’re seeing now is huge investments in Indonesia, funded in partnership with China to develop their low grade deposits and make them viable not just for stainless but also as battery materials. So that’s where a lot of the investment is happening right now, and some of it’s unproven technology. But given the amount of money they’re throwing at it, it odds are it will work if it doesn’t work. And even if it does, you will need supplies for nickel from elsewhere. And there’s a lot of other companies in other parts of the world trying to advance nickel projects. Speaker 2 [00:06:37] Have you noticed any work arounds or substitutes to reduce the reliance on nickel? Speaker 3 [00:06:42] Yeah, the big thing will boil down to battery chemistry. So right now, if you buy a Tesla in North America, you’re getting a battery that does contain nickel as well as cobalt is another metal that’s going to be already is scarce. But if you buy certain types of Tesla in China and other parts of Europe, you might get a lithium ion phosphate battery, which is a different type of technology. And like a lot of things, it’s a trade off. It’s a lower quality battery. You don’t get the same range doesn’t behave well in cold weather, but it’s cheaper, especially if nickel and cobalt continue to rise and become more scarce, so that in the short term is probably the biggest substitution point. And then other than that, there’s also other emerging battery technologies. It’s all a fairly new market, so it’s going to evolve over the next five, 10, 20 years. Speaker 1 [00:07:32] You mentioned some stainless steel, which of course, is critical to all our homes and commercial buildings, and it’s also what the majority of nickel goes into as we look at a materials revolution in many ways over the coming decades to get to net zero. Do you think there’s going to be a big shift in the demand and usage of stainless steel? Speaker 3 [00:07:51] It’s one of those things that it’s almost what’s in style at any given point. I mean, the alternative is buying something with coating on it. So steel with paint know so you buy a white fridge instead of a stainless steel fridge or something like that. So that tends to go along with consumer trends. So if nickel becomes prohibitively expensive and or used in other applications like batteries, then maybe some of that stainless does get crowded out. Some of it, though, is used in applications in restaurants and hospitals and things like that where you kind of need to use that not stainless steel product. Copper is being used as a potential alternative given its anti-microbial bacterial properties. And so that’s something that’s another alternative. So there’s other ways to substitute away from stainless, but it’s still going to be a key consumer product in a number of applications for a long time. Speaker 1 [00:08:44] I’m thinking back to Sudbury, and it sounds like it’s a good time to be in the nickel business for the years ahead. Sam, thanks for being on the 10 minute take. Yeah, great Speaker 3 [00:08:53] to be here. Thank you. Speaker 2 [00:08:55] So, John, for this episode, I was reading about people actually hoarding nickel coins as a way to make some money with the price surge, even though I’m pretty sure melting down nickels is illegal. But it makes me wonder how much would the big nickel be worth now? Speaker 1 [00:09:10] Oh, that sounds like a million dollar question. Maybe we can crowdsource that with our listeners who can come to our RBC thought leadership web page and maybe make some suggestions that Speaker 2 [00:09:19] would be hilarious. That is it for this week’s 10 minutes. Join us again next week for our regular episode. Until then, I’m Teresa, though, Speaker 1 [00:09:27] and I’m John Stackhouse. Talk to you soon, disruptors. <Speaker 4 [00:09:31] The 10 Minute Take is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit RBC dot com slash disruptors.

Speaker 1 [00:00:01] Hi, it’s John here. Speaker 2 [00:00:02] And hello, it’s Theresa. Speaker 1 [00:00:04] Theresa, you know, we’ve had a lot of false starts through this pandemic, but as we tiptoe into the spring of 2020 too, it really does feel like things are taking off. Just look at airports over the recent March break, people in big crowds heading off to all sorts of destinations. And I’m really intrigued by the rise of it’s almost reversed flight shaming. All my friends who are flying off to destinations far off are kind of mocking people who are stuck back at home. It wasn’t so long ago when they were being shamed for getting onto an airplane. I actually Speaker 2 [00:00:39] love flying. I love getting to the airport early, sitting in the lounge with a glass of wine and a nice book or a magazine, and to me to start a vacation. But my partner and I, we went to the Caribbean a few months ago, and the requirements just getting into the country were extremely stringent multiple documents, validation portals and vendors that you got to go through. It’s stressful, but hopefully opening up soon and starting to feel like normal again. Speaker 1 [00:01:04] One of the false starts I mentioned last fall, I did get into the air again. I went to London, England, to run in a half marathon. Awesome. And it was the first flight I’d been on in ages and found it really unnerving. And of course, it was chaos at the airport to get onto the plane. All sorts of procedures that people were just not ready for. So maybe we’ll all just adjust back to, to flying and traveling as quickly as we’ve adjusted to other things, Speaker 2 [00:01:30] like less dress setters. And we’re not alone either. New data from RBC Economics just released mid-March confirms that travel spending has finally touched pre-COVID levels in Canada, though domestic tourism still outpaces international travel, of course, and the changes to Canada’s entry requirements meant an immediate bump in Canadians booking these long delayed trips abroad, and it’s also spurred international travelers to consider Canada once again. But John rising prices and geopolitical uncertainty definitely puts some of that momentum at risk. Speaker 1 [00:02:01] So right, Theresa, I mean, we are seeing anything but normal in the new normal. We’re seeing inflation that very few predicted. Maybe it will ease through the year, but there’s no indication that it’s going to drop precipitously. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has rattled global markets and disrupted air travel as well in a significant part of the world. The next few months are not only going to be curious to watch, but there are going to be a real test for the travel industry. There’s no doubt a lot of turbulence ahead. And with a lot of innovation, and we’ve got a great conversation coming up about how those tensions may get resolved. This is Disrupters, an RBC podcast. I’m John Stackhouse Speaker 2 [00:02:52] and I’m Trinh Theresa Do. In this episode of Disruptors, we’re looking at the return of travel post-COVID and exploring how everything from technology to global politics will affect how we travel this year and beyond to help us on this journey. We’re speaking with somebody with his finger on the pulse of Canadian wanderlust. Hussein Fazal is the CEO of Toronto-based SnapCommerce. Its flagship product, SnapTravel, is an AI powered half bot, half human service that helps customers book hotel rooms, flights and car rentals through their website, as well as through SMS, Messenger and WhatsApp. Hussein and his business partner Henry Ashi, have raised more than $100 million over the past five years, including a 2018 investment from basketball superstar Steph Curry. Hussein, welcome to disruptors. Speaker 3 [00:03:45] Thank you for having me. Speaker 2 [00:03:46] So last year it was a good year for SnapTravel: over a billion dollars in sales, but it’s been too long years of little to no travel for most Canadians coming out of the pandemic. What’s been your biggest learning about how travel is restarting and changing? Has anything surprised you? Speaker 3 [00:04:03] Yeah. So actually a lot of times to have this conversation. The first thing I tell people actually catches them quite a bit by surprise, and it’s the Covid had almost two years ago, there was obviously a huge drop in travel and everyone kind of froze. But just a few months after that, we saw the US domestic travel picked up. So obviously, the international travel has completely changed with all the restrictions that I’m one being nervous. Even people within the US, let’s say, you know, flying across the country, that was an issue, but people stayed locally and they were traveling. So in Canada, we’re a bit more conservative and we didn’t travel as much. But in the US, domestic travel picked up after just two or three months. That completely surprised me, and we actually saw us getting up to almost pre-pandemic levels just a few months into the pandemic, which was a little bit crazy. Speaker 1 [00:04:50] Hussein, do you think that’s a fundamental difference with Canadians or are we just kind of a bit or two behind where Americans were and maybe are? Speaker 3 [00:04:58] Well, there’s a couple of things going on, too. First of all, I think it’s just Canadians being more conservative than the Americans. That’s just the way it works. I think there’s more people in the U.S. who just don’t believe in the virus and care about the virus, and let’s stop them. And then secondly, I think just the geography of the U.S., there’s just a lot of places where Americans can go, and there’s a lot of cities where you can go to nearby beach towns and nearby vacation spots. And there’s just more of that geography and more of that of that, hey, I can drive under 100 miles and I can go somewhere and get away, whereas, you know, we’re a little bit more spread out and maybe don’t have so many destinations to be able to do that. Speaker 2 [00:05:36] Did you notice an impact when the federal government announced that there were relaxing COVID testing requirements? Speaker 3 [00:05:43] Yeah, so that was almost instant, so if you look specifically at Canada and you look at international travel, that’s where as soon as those types of announcements come in, you see the changes almost immediately. So you see search volume go up. You see international travel go up versus domestic as a ratio. And then the other thing you also see is how far in advance people are booking. So people used to be pretty nervous and they would say, Hey, I’m just going to wait and then maybe book a day before or two days before. But as things start to open up, more and more now, people are starting to plan for their own advance. And they’re saying, now I’m going to go plan for the next holiday and the next holiday and start booking way in advance. Speaker 1 [00:06:23] So, Hussein, there’s so much we want to talk to you about, but I wonder if we can get a sense of snap travel story. Give us give us a sense of the business model and where you’re going to take it as consumers get back on the road and in the air. Speaker 3 [00:06:36] So the business started about five or six years ago, and when we started the company, we just heard a snap travel, as we’re talking about today, which is really about helping customers save money on hotels and giving them like great service. So our customer will come in to have a conversation with us. Similar to if you were talking to a travel agent, you can get some great deals. Then we make sure we use messaging to maintain that relationship with the customer, offer them a great service, be there for support and just build that relationship over time. What we have actually been working on and what we’ve expanded into in the past couple of years as we talk to our customers, is they’ve been looking not just to save money on travel, but looking to save money, needing to save money in other areas as well. So we’ve actually sort of expanded into what we call snap commerce now, sort of the parent company and where we’re on the verge of releasing some pretty exciting stuff around shopping and around fintech and helping their customers save money across everything they buy. But the core travel business is one that continues to do well and continues to grow. So you reference sort of a billion in sales that sort of, you know, cumulative over time. We’ve sort of got to that point with, with almost half of it just coming last year and that business continues to grow. And now, with the easing of restrictions and with people being with Covid sort of hopefully the last time now, you know, going away, we’re seeing that demand pick up. I was kind of looking at that some survey stats earlier and, you know, 67 percent of people plan to take a trip in the next four months. So I mean, there’s three of us here and now I’m planning to take a trip in the next four months. And I guess one of you, hopefully one of you are as well to prove the stats that I have and one in five, we’ll plan to take two or more trips and the next four months. So be is an exciting time seeing travel opened back up. Speaker 2 [00:08:19] Staying on your platform for a second? I’m really curious why you chose to go down the route of a relationship based travel approach, because seems to me that we went from a period where we relied on travel agents to help us get these deals booked. But then we shifted to a largely DIY looking at the aggregators like Expedia and building our own itineraries. So why did you choose to go back to that travel agent approach? Speaker 3 [00:08:42] Yeah. So I would I would think of it more as a hybrid, right? So I would say the major misconception that people have when they think about travel over messaging is that we are this like ultimate travel bot that has great natural language processing technology and can read your mind and you can say, Hey, I want to stay at a nice four star boutique hotel in New York, and we know exactly what we want to give you a great recommendation. That’s just not how it works, because I don’t know you to resign when you’re searching for New York. I don’t know exactly what you’re looking for. And even if I knew what you were looking for and I gave you a recommendation, you probably still want to see all the options right? You still want to see. Let me see, because I don’t know your trade off between price, location and quality. So we use messaging as sort of an entry point. And if you’ve used the service, what you’ll see is very quickly we take you to UI where you can use filters and you can see a map and you can see a list and you can sort of pick the hotel that works for you. So we’re messaging is helpful because it allows us to do some very interesting things. It’s after you’ve run your search in New York, we can continue to track deals. So if we find something that pops up and we know you’re interested in it, we can send you a message and say, Hey Theresa, we know you were looking at this hotel. You know, the price has dropped 20 bucks. Go take a look at it, right? You have a specific question. You can just pick up your phone and say, Hey, I have a question, you know, during Covid, this is actually a huge benefit for us because there are a lot of people who wanted to travel, but they were nervous and they wanted to know what’s the Covid protocol? What’s the event or even their refund policies right there? Hey, what’s the refund policy? What happens if I get Covid right? So. So messaging is great for retargeting. It’s great for continuing the conversation. It’s great for support. But it’s not necessarily better for the initial searching and browsing like, are you? A user interface is the best way to search and browse, and we continue to do that. So messaging is sort of that hybrid approach that we use. Speaker 1 [00:10:28] If you can give away the secret and your secret sauce of saying what? What is it? I mean, Speaker 3 [00:10:33] we’re super data driven company. I would say everything we do is around looking at data to help us optimize everything and women using that approach and just continuously optimizing. So that means optimizing supply. You know, what are people searching for? Let’s go and get the best supply over there, optimizing demand where the best demand channels, how can we match that optimizing product where people are dropping off in the funnel, right? And maybe if I sort of go back to that messaging approach that we talked about earlier, that’s an example, right? So initially it was all messaging. So you come in and say, Hey, I need a hotel in New York, and then we would say, OK, well, you know what kind of hotel you’re looking for? Or do you prefer boutique hotels or chain hotels? But like, OK, what’s your price range? We would ask all these questions to try and give you the perfect recommendation, but only look at the data. Every additional question you ask just results in more drop off. Just show me, show me you don’t like, don’t keep asking me questions. So you know, we said, OK. Well, why don’t we, you know, if someone says, Hey, I want a hotel, only now is will your city in your dates and like, here you go to cure all your options. Go take a look. And we’re glad to use messaging to answer any questions or to be able to target or have a conversation or do things like that. But the data driven approach tells us to stay focused on getting the customer a great deal and getting them that deal as fast as possible. Speaker 2 [00:11:42] So something that was really cool with the app as there’s an option to layer in food and nightlife and other different aspects of cities. And the way that it manifests on the platform is through a heat map, which I thought was really interesting. So if I’m looking for a hotel in Chelsea, New York, I want to know, OK, is this hotel going to be close to where I can get all the great foods that I want to eat while I’m in New York? And as you were putting together the platform and as you’re continuing to evolve, how are you taking into account changing consumer preferences for travel? Speaker 3 [00:12:14] Yeah, I mean, that’s a good question. And maybe that goes back to what I said about being data driven. So we’re always, always, always talking to our customers, even when we do have any idea as so let’s say the heat map, right? So you would think that the heat map is a great feature and the reality is there it is, but we don’t take anything for granted. So if we want to put on a heat map, we’ll go and ab test mosaic and let’s have the tropical heat map. Half the traffic will run without the heat map and then we’ll sort of see what happens. We’ll see the conversion rate difference. We’ll see that that’s with those difference. We’ll see the repeat rate difference to customers come back again because I like the experience. So it’s talking to customers keeping an eye out for what sort of product innovations out there, but ultimately being data driven and seeing what sticks and what doesn’t. Speaker 1 [00:12:57] And tell us a bit about how you see the travel industry model and where you want to position yourself. Something I found always fascinating about travel is, in some ways, it’s a fixed pie. There’s a certain number of people and only so much we can travel. And therefore, over the decades, we see vertical integration or attempts at diversification. Are you looking at vertical integration, looking for different kinds of opportunities in travel? Or do you see it’s now travel’s future, maybe outside of travel? Yeah, I mean, Speaker 3 [00:13:28] we’re looking outside of travel and not not for any other reason than that’s really what our customers are asking us for, right? Or our customers are saying, Hey, you just got me a great deal on a hotel. But what I could really use is to save money on Expedia. Save money on why, right? And that’s sort of where we’re leaning towards and moving to other verticals specifically on your comment about the travel industry and sort of it being a fixed pie. I think that some of that’s sort of true but also changing and that, you know, we have customers now or lose the new generation who are wanting to spend more money on experiences than spending money on things. Are you seeing almost like a shift in percentage of disposable income that gets spent on travel and experiences, which is different? So, you know, with previous generations, it’s like, OK, I’m going to have this much money to spend on trips or I’m going to go on one trip a year or whatever it is. And now the new generation saying, you know, I’m not going to own a house, I’m not going to own a car. And when you take the disposable income, I haven’t spent it on trips and experiences, so that’s happening. And then secondly, I think that people are even doing more local trips, and I think Covid actually accelerated that right. So before when you would say, Hey, I’m only going to go in one or two trips a year because you typically be thinking about getting on a plane and going somewhere. And now with Covid, there was this period of time where people were traveling, but they didn’t want to get on a plane, so they would start to take more and more local trips. So you’re starting to see this change was like, Hey, I can go in one or two local trips here and I can go on to international trips a year. So we are starting to feel like it is expanding. Speaker 1 [00:14:58] Coming up after the break, more of our conversation with Hussein Feisal. So stay right here to see these pictures. Speaker 2 [00:15:09] You’re listening to Disruptors an RBC podcast. I’m Theresa Do, RBC Economics and Thought Leadership recently published a report called Equal Measures Advancing Canada’s Working Women in a Post-pandemic Economy. In it, we look at the importance of boosting women’s pay and participation in the labor force and tackle some of the possible solutions. Among them establish greater parity between maternity and paternity leave and reduce the financial burden of taking parental leave, create more opportunities for upskilling and pathways for women into senior roles, and recruit more women into the skilled trades. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes of this episode and visit RBC dot com slash thought leadership. And be sure to follow disruptors wherever you get your podcasts. All places. Speaker 1 [00:15:57] Welcome back. We’re talking with Hussein Fazal about the return of travel coming out of the pandemic, as well as some of the storm clouds on the horizon that could disrupt the recovery. We can’t talk about travel without recognizing what’s going on in the world and specifically the war in Ukraine and what that is doing, not just to that country and the region, but the disruptions it’s causing globally. Flights are being rerouted. That’s probably the least inconvenience out of the certainly from a Ukrainian perspective. But oil prices way up. How do you think that’s going to impact travel? Speaker 3 [00:16:33] It’s obviously super sad and super unfortunate to see that happen. I mean, when this started, we actually blocked any hotel bookings in Russia. We blocked anyone from making bookings and in the currency is just extremely sad to see that type of unprovoked aggression. And our hearts are out to the people in Ukraine. Yeah, we’re seeing some increase in gas prices. We’re seeing some changes to inflation. But I think again, all that stuff normalize over a longer period of time. So I’m not I’m not too concerned about the long term ramifications of that right now. For us, or at least the way I think about personally is just obviously, no one wants this war to continue. And we’re sort of our hearts are with the people of Ukraine and that that’s the most important thing Speaker 2 [00:17:14] as we are coming out of the pandemic, very high inflation and high costs or sensing this tension between the fact that it is frankly getting much more expensive to travel. And yet we all still want to do it because of the pent up demand of the last couple of years. So from your perspective, how sensitive are Canadian travelers to price increases and who is actually doing the traveling this year and next? Like who can afford to? Speaker 3 [00:17:37] Yeah, it’s you know, first of all, I would say it’s not just Canadian doubted everyone is price sensitive. It has been some very difficult times for people in Covid, and there’s definitely a large segment of the demographics that have had a difficult time during Covid and now saving money is even more important. And then and then the opposite of that sort of what you mentioned is that we see prices starting to go up because there’s all this pent up demand and people have been waiting. Right. So. So I would say there’s definitely a demographic that has been saving money as that pent up demand is ready to go. And then unfortunately, there’s another part of the demographic that is now in some ways, somewhat priced out. I mean, I expect we’re going to see things normalize. I think that over the next six to 12 months, we’re probably going to see a lot of people traveling like way more than usual to make up for them for the past two years. I mean, one of them, one of the most interesting stats I have for you is that typically on any given night, about 30 to 40 percent of hotel rooms across the US go empty. So that means there is excess capacity and obviously it depends where you’re going. There’s some boutique hotels, a fancy boujee beach. They’re going to be sold out every single night for an entire year. But if you’re going to Vegas, where there’s tons and tons of hotel rooms, there’s a lot of places across the states and even plus Canada where there’s just a lot of supply. You’re going to have empty hotel rooms, so there are rooms available. And eventually the market’s going to normalize. These hotels are going to look to maximize the revenue to fill up those beds. The biggest tip I would say in terms of booking is just kind of really being aware of the booking windows and knowing how far in advance to book. So often you’ll get the best deals when you’re booking two to three weeks in advance. When you wake up to last minute could have a chance. But there’s also a risk there that you know you end up with hotels that sell out or end up filling up. And when you booked too far in advance, you’re probably not leaving yourself the opportunity for a hotel to say, Hey, it looks like we may not be a capacity. I think we’re going to we’re going to do a price drop over here, right? So. So ideally, you can you can sort of book two to three weeks in advance or if you’re booking well in advance, you’re doing that with a good responsibility policy. So if you see a price drop, you can go and say, I’m going to catch my booking and rebook Hussein. Speaker 1 [00:19:47] You mentioned Canadians desire to travel internationally and of course, a lot of people, not just Americans, but Europeans and Asians are going to be traveling again. How do we get them and how do tour operators and hospitality operators get them coming to Canada and spending more time and money in Canada as the world opens up? Speaker 3 [00:20:06] I think that in general, as a country, we probably need to do more. One of the things that I was really excited about and this is about four or five years ago, MGM was going to come here and they were going to come to Toronto and they were going to build out a complex. They were going to build out a casino, they were going to build a theme park. They were going to build sort of a water park. They were going to build, you know, a mall, meeting rooms. They were going to build a train from the airport straight to the MGM property. That’s the type of stuff where you can say, Hey, now, now there’s a whole other reason to come into Toronto and make this destination. Unfortunately, in order for MGM to do that, they wanted to obviously have a casino in place, and that’s something that the city ended up projecting, which is very disappointing because I mean, I understand some of the problems that come with having a casino, and I think there probably would have been some ways to mitigate those problems. But net, you talk about a major company like that. Coming in and putting in a major infrastructure project that makes Toronto more of a destination, so that’s at a country level or even a city level. We need to start thinking about doing things like that and building more of this infrastructure. Speaker 2 [00:21:23] One of the great gifts that the pandemic gave us gifts or curses has been just the ability to connect with people across vast distances through a screen. To what extent do you think business travel will come back and how do you see airlines, airports, hotels changing their business model now, where they previously relied on that lucrative business traveler? Speaker 3 [00:21:46] Yeah. So this is this is an interesting question that we talked about. So I can tell you internally how we think about it. So we are now approaching 200 employees. We are about, I would say, 60, 70 percent here in Canada, about 30, 30, 40 percent in the U.S. and globally. These are just executives who used to travel quite a bit. I used to travel almost once a month to New York, to San Francisco, and obviously in the pandemic, it was almost two years of almost no business travel. I just recently, I made a couple of trip to New York and San Francisco. It what it feels like is that some business travelers are going to pick up. There’s still no replacement sometimes for having dinner with someone or meeting in person. But I just don’t think that’s going to be at the same scale as before. So I expect that a lot of staff and a lot of meetings can just happen online, but that’s like deep relationship building of those strategic partnerships. That’s the type of stuff that I think is going to happen in person. Speaker 1 [00:22:41] Hussein, as we move towards close, I wonder if you could share some parting thoughts on how we, as travelers may be changing. Something that fascinates me about travel is that it brings humans together, and we probably all longed to be on those crowded streets in Manhattan or even those awkward moments of being squeezed between people getting to their seats on an airline or trying to find a spot on a crowded beach or have a seat at a crowded cafe. And yet, after two years of pandemic, all that kind of seems weird now. Is that going to be the normal again anytime soon? Or are we as a traveling species going to be a little different coming out of this? Speaker 3 [00:23:21] I think it’s a little back to normal. Some lifestyle changes have happened like there’s been people who move from downtown to the suburbs and people who are, you know, have more space and maybe are working from home cause they’re just not going out as much. But I think the next time you’re going to get into crowded coffee shop or a crowded beach, you’re not going to think twice about it. Speaker 1 [00:23:39] So if I hear you correctly, what you’re saying is I’m going to have to stand elbow to elbow with people again to appreciate a painting at the at the moment. Speaker 3 [00:23:46] I think so. I think Speaker 1 [00:23:47] that’s OK. I’ll look. I’ll look forward to that moment. Hussein, thanks so much for being on RBC disruptors. Speaker 3[00:23:52] No problem. Thank you for having me, John. Speaker 2 [00:23:56] That conversation has me itching to plan my next trip, maybe even with an AI powered chat bot. I really love the optimism that Hussein had about where travel is going and the opportunities we might have to travel. Given the changing nature of work, that extra flexibility means that you might be able to do two weeks in a far off city as long as you can check into your computer every day and get your deliverables done. And at the same time you’re in a new place, you can close your laptop and then go out and explore a new city and eat great food always comes back to food. For me, that’s what I’m really, really jazzed about. How about you? Speaker 1 [00:24:33] Yeah, it makes me want to get on a plane probably two to three weeks from now, but I also realized how technology really is changing travel, not in the ways that maybe some of the extreme thinkers thought that we’d all sit in our basement with our VR goggles on and go places without having to leave home. But it’s technology that is optimizing the ability to travel for all of us. It’s not only making it more affordable and accessible, but as Hussein was saying, we’re getting better and better deals. Maybe not as good as we’d like all the time. But with technology getting better, the opportunity to travel will improve with it. Speaker 2 [00:25:13] And the best part is you have a machine searching up those deals for you, and you’re not spending that time trudging through websites yourself. Well, that’s all for now. Thanks to our guest again, Hussein Faisal of Snap Commerce. Next week, join us for the latest tech and innovation buzz with our 10 minute take series. Until then, I’m Theresa Do and I’m John Stackhouse. Speaker 1 [00:25:33] This is Disruptors an RBC podcast. Talk to you soon. Speaker 4 [00:25:42] Disruptors, an RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by Jar Audio. For more disruptors content, like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit rbc dot com, slash disruptors.