Theresa [00:00:01] Hey, it’s Theresa.

[00:00:03] Today I’m coming to you from downtown Toronto, which is the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Huron Wendat peoples.

[00:00:15] Indigenous peoples in Canada — from the Mi’kmaq in the east to the Tla-o-qui-aht in the west to the Inuit in the north — have played a vital role in the development of this country. As we exit the pandemic and look toward the skills and talents we’ll need to come out stronger, tne first peoples, who are no strangers to pandemics, will help lead the way.

[00:00:36] The recovery faces tremendous challenges, including how to balance the demands of a greying population with the needs of an economy run by young workers. And that’s where a real opportunity lies for Canada. Over the next decade, 750,000 Indigenous youth are expected to enter the Canadian workforce — a cohort that’s growing four times faster than the non-Indigenous population. By boosting digital literacy levels and providing universal access to high speed Internet, Canada can ensure that Indigenous youth have the skills and tools they need to succeed, and that businesses all across this country will have the skilled workers they need to thrive in a post-COVID world.

[00:01:27] This is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. I’m Trinh Theresa Do, sitting in for John Stackhouse.

[00:01:40] Our Economics and Thought Leadership team has just released a new report based on a series of roundtables with Indigenous youth, educators, employers, and community leaders to understand the new realities of a high-speed economy.

[00:01:52] In the first half of this episode, I’ll be talking with a Toronto-based tech entrepreneur and community activist who’s working to address the underrepresentation of Indigenous peoples in Canada’s technology and innovation sectors. And in the second half, I’ll speak with the leader of a Yellowknife-based organization about some of the unique challenges and opportunities in creating an entrepreneurial ecosystem in Canada’s north.

[00:02:19] The numbers are astounding. Today, Canada’s Indigenous GDP is thirty three billion dollars, but that total could reach 100 billion dollars if it were to match Canada’s per capita level. Indigenous Canadians create new businesses at nine times the national average, and that momentum is key to unlocking new possibilities in our economy.

[00:02:41] The Toronto-based Center for Indigenous Innovation and Technology is one organization that hopes to do some of that unlocking. It provides technology training as well as research and advocacy, with the aim of boosting Indigenous representation in the tech industry and promoting problem solving using an Indigenous lens. Joining me now is the founder of the C.I.I.T., Jarret Leaman.

[00:03:01] Jarret, welcome to Disruptors!

Jarret Leaman [00:03:03] Bonjour amis! [Greeting in Ojibwe]

Jarret Leaman [00:03:08] My name is Jarret Leaman and I am a member of Magnetawan First Nation, which is located in southern Ontario outside of Parry Sound. We are an Anishnabeg community and I don’t live within my community. I live within the city of Toronto.

Theresa [00:03:23] The C.I.I.T. was founded in 2017. Can you explain why you decided this organization was needed and what the gap in the market was that you’re hoping to fill?

Jarret Leaman [00:03:33] The idea actually came for this nonprofit from my time on the Governor General’s tour, actually, the Governor General’s Leadership Program. And I was placed in Northwest Territories and I got to travel up north and into some of the fly-in communities right up into the Arctic, right up into Tuktoyaktuk. And one of the things that I noticed in all of the communities was that they did have Internet or they had cell service that was pretty fast. But I didn’t see a lot of software or use of technology in their government, for example, or in some of their businesses that we were touring. And so that’s really where the idea came from in 2017, actually. And I came back from that tour and that really awesome learning experience, and I was like, what am I going to do? What did I learn and how can I make an impact? And that’s really when I entered into the technology and innovation space.

Theresa [00:04:27] I love that — carrying that momentum forward. So how have things changed or evolved in the last four years?

Jarret Leaman [00:04:33] Quite a lot, actually. I had a really great opportunity to work at the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business in my past, and I really got to get an opportunity to see Indigenous businesses across the country. And one of the gaps that I noticed was in technology. And I know that it’s growing space and we do have a lot of growing Indigenous tech companies. But I really wanted to just sort of look at what is being done in this space. And how is this being coordinated? And what is the different levels of government doing? And I quickly realized that there wasn’t a focal or central point where this was was being undertaken. I was attending a lot of Indigenous innovation conferences around the country and globally. And I was noticing that I was the only Indigenous person in those rooms sometimes. And I was like, so what are we going to do about this? And how do we start to really put an Indigenous lens on this burgeoning sector that our community is really starting to embrace?

Theresa [00:05:37] I want to carry on that point of the Indigenous lens. I know that that is part of the organization’s mission. Can you share more about what that lens is?

Jarret Leaman [00:05:46] When you think about innovation and we think about the technology sector, and I find that sometimes people think of my community as maybe relegated to the past a little bit and really wanted to highlight through C.I.I.T. the amount of innovation that we’ve had in our community and how do we bring those elements forward into forward thinking, into future thinking? And an example of that would be thinking about our Indigenous traditional governance models and how they were consensus-based. And we know that that’s a key piece in cybersecurity in regards to blockchain moving forward and really tying those connections. Because what I found was sometimes when I was touring, doing speaking engagements around Canada, I was finding that it wasn’t really an option or career thought for a lot of Indigenous youth, potentially, in the tech space. And I really wanted to develop an organization that really showed the innovation that we’ve had historically, but how the innovation that we historically did is being used to build future solutions. And I think that is the key to getting our numbers increased of Indigenous people in the tech and innovation sectors. How do we identify that and what does that look like and what does Indigenous innovation look like? And I, I struggled with that for a while, actually. And I came up with a really great example when I was, you know, engaging with an Indigenous learning institute. They really came up with an idea, at one of the institutions I was working with, around an example of what is a living plantwall look like with hydroponics — an app that’s connected with identifying the traditional medicine — and what does that mean to the people in our community, members learning about the traditional medicines? And maybe that that app can be in their own language as well? So we’re working on language revitalization, culture revitalization and integrating technology into that. And that was just an example that I like to use to really sort of see what is Indigenous innovation look like.

Theresa [00:07:42] I think we’re in such a key moment for that, too, because you hear of big organizations, investment firms, rethinking our model for capitalism and exploring what these different approaches could be. And so I’m curious, what’s been the response from the business and tech community at large into embracing more of these Indigenous approaches?

Jarret Leaman [00:08:04] When I started in 2017, I think we were a little bit ahead of the game. You know, it was sort of a burgeoning and it still is a burgeoning sort of area within Canada that we’re really entering into. And it’s becoming more apparent in regards to employment, for example, we are looking to launch a program within the next year that will focus on increasing Indigenous representation in the technology sector. But really, with that tech skills accelerator, it will be focused on cultural components and leadership as well as we want to develop the leaders in the tech space. It’s so critical for our communities to become connected, bridge the digital divide, participate in the digital economy, and we need a lot of work in our community to get there.

Theresa [00:08:50] Can you share more about the tech skills accelerator program that you just mentioned? What are the specific skills or pillars that need to be developed?

Jarret Leaman [00:08:59] The Skills Accelerator has a couple of different audiences. So, there is the private sector, but I also wanted to make sure that we had a clear opportunity for Indigenous governments to participate in the program as well, so that if they’re looking to build digital aspects, the First Nation governments, then they would have a training ground for that. And so one of the things that was really important to me in post-secondary — I went to a university in Ontario that had a really strong Indigenous culture focus. And I went to university right after I graduated from high school. And I remember thinking, as an Indigenous youth, I’m going to be in business and I’m going to work in business and that’s what I’m going to do. And I didn’t really want to learn about my traditional culture or learn about my history, which had been taken from my family. My father was in a Scoop generation, my grandparents were in the residential school era, and it wasn’t something that I was interested in. And so I show up to business school my first day ready to learn business. And I wasn’t really interested in Indigenous studies focus. And as I started to learn that more, it really did become apparent that it was needed. And I remember thinking I had to go do seminars in Indigenous studies classes that I was taking and it was in a teepee. And I live in Toronto now. I’m a city boy. And I remember just thinking like, oh, man, like like traipsing through the snow, I’m in business school – what is going on? And at the time, I didn’t really appreciate that. And when I look back and I think about the growth that I’ve had as a leader, that was the critical time, really understanding yourself and being happy with yourself and bringing that forward. And I think that it was through my elders and through the learning of my traditional language that that really began to blossom. And it really gets into this idea that we have now, you know, in corporate Canada, and in the diversity and inclusion space, around bringing your whole self to work. That is what creates, in my opinion, leaders and helps move initiative or innovation forward. And so for us, having that as part of our programing is critical.

Theresa [00:11:11] I want to follow up on the point you’ve made about you being a city boy – you live in downtown Toronto. And I want to take our listeners to a 2010 photo series called Concrete Indians, in which you were a part, exploring the duality of your culture and the urban lifestyle. And it’s a powerful play in contrasts because you’re set in the Financial District around Union Station wearing a traditional cultural attire underneath your blazer, holding what I think looks like a part of a headdress (but please correct me) as suited men and taxis and the hustle and bustle of the city swirls around you. Why was it important for you to be involved in that project? And what kind of message were you hoping to communicate with it?

Jarret Leaman [00:11:50] I was so lucky that I got to participate in that photo series with an amazing Indigenous artist, Nadya Kwandibens. And when she came to me and we met to talk about the concept I was — actually, in that picture, I lived right on Bay Street at the time, it’s taken right on Bay Street and my condo is actually right in the background. I really wanted to show that there was a new wave of Indigenous people coming in with business degrees and coming in and entering into the Bay Street era. There always was Indigenous people as part of it, and those individuals that always lay the path before me and they did a lot, actually some really great leaders in Toronto, for example. And I wanted to show that from a youth perspective coming into the city, I am the first generation in my family to have a university degree and the first one in my community to have a graduate degree, I think, as well. And so I wanted to show that sort of coming into the urban setting to really learn the ropes and figure out what the what the space was like. But keeping in mind the impact that was needed for our community itself. And I think I did that.

Theresa [00:13:01] If you fast forward to now and reflecting on everything you’ve experienced and worked on, have you noticed corporate Canada embracing more Indigenous talent?

Jarret Leaman [00:13:11] When I first started in the space in the business space in Toronto, I noticed that there was a lot of Indigenous diversity and inclusion approaches that I was seeing were focused on just attraction. And so if we think about the business model, we think about attracting Indigenous talent. What measures is the organization taking to retain that talent? And then also, is there a transition map in play for that employee? And we’ve seen a lot of reports come out that talk about the lack of Indigenous leadership at the senior level, at the board level. And what we’re seeing is an approach where a lot of Indigenous people entered into the corporate world but are still stuck at a certain level.

Theresa [00:13:53] Many of Canada’s Indigenous communities are pretty remote. But in your view, what is the opportunity for youth hoping to make their mark in this decentralized, digitized future, especially in roles that aren’t the ones that are stagnant or ones that are getting cut?

Jarret Leaman [00:14:08] When we think about the Indigenous community, I always think about it in three different ways. We always want think about First Nation people, but also the Metis community, as well as the Inuit community. And each of those communities has a very different perspective and need in regards to technology and what I’m calling bridging the digital divide. And the opportunity for us is around, how do we enhance our Indigenous governments and organizations and institutions that really move the dial forward in different areas in regards to health, economic outcome? And how are they embracing technology in order to have positions for our youth to come through and work with them if they so choose to work within the Indigenous business space or the Indigenous communities themselves?

Theresa [00:14:53] Jarret, I have learned so much in this conversation. Thank you for sharing your insights and for joining us on Disruptors today.

Jarret Leaman [00:15:00] Wow, awesome. Thank you for having me. [Goodbye in Ojibwe] And thank you.

Theresa [00:15:05] My guest today has been Jarret Leaman, founder of the Center for Indigenous Innovation and Technology.

[00:15:11] Coming up, we’ll talk with a leader from Canada’s north about how his organization hopes to capitalize on the move to a digital, decentralized economy.

Tracee Smith [00:15:25] You’re listening to Disruptors, an RBC podcast. My name is Tracee Smith, one of the contributors to the new report Theresa mentioned at the beginning of this episode. It’s called Preparing Indigenous Youth for a Digital Future. And in it, the RBC Economics and Thought Leadership Team explores the rapid digitization of our economy and details the skills and infrastructure required for Indigenous youth to take advantage of economic opportunities in the 2020s. To learn more, check out the link in the show notes of this episode and be sure to like and follow Disruptors wherever you get your podcasts.

Theresa [00:16:03] Welcome back. Indigenous youth represent a key pillar in Canada’s post-pandemic recovery, and yet obstacles remain for business leaders hoping to employ those talents. One of the obstacles is geography. Much of rural and northern Canada still doesn’t have high-speed Internet, for example. Another obstacle is access to the education, mentorship and coaching skilled workers and entrepreneurs need to thrive. Our next guest is working hard to address those challenges. Benjamin Scott is the project director for EntrepreNorth, based in Yellowknife, which works to empower Indigenous entrepreneurs so that they can build sustainable businesses and livelihoods across northern Canada.

[00:16:44] Benjamin, welcome to Disruptors.

Benjamin Scott [00:16:46] Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here to chat about EntrepreNorth and all that we do. I’m a member of the [00:16:51]Tlicho [0.0s] First Nation. I grew up in the north and have a big family based out of Northwest Territories, but I currently reside on unceded Coast Salish territory in North Vancouver. I have the privilege of leading the EntrepreNorth Project and much of our work is really focused on working where the socioeconomic gaps are widest and trying to have an impact there across the north.

Theresa [00:17:16] Can you share more about those gaps that you mentioned? Where are those the biggest?

Benjamin Scott [00:17:21] In the north, there’s education gaps, there’s income gaps, there’s access to education challenges, there is employment gaps. So a lot of what we’re focused on in supporting entrepreneurs and businesses and particularly we try to extend our reach into smaller, more remote communities where those gaps are typically widest, so outside the regional or even city centers of Whitehorse, Yellowknife, and Iqaluit. And we primarily work with Indigenous entrepreneurs. And so those are typically where we see a lot of the socioeconomic gaps and where a lot of our focus, when we designed EntrepreNorth, we knew there is access to capital issues. But what we sort of honed in on was as a first priority was focusing in on supporting capacity building and designing our entire project around that concept.

Theresa [00:18:15] When we were exploring organization and doing some of our own research, we came across the multidirectional business compass. Can you share with our listeners a little bit more about that?

Benjamin Scott [00:18:24] Yeah, absolutely. So EntrepreNorth, we’ve brought together a consortium of stakeholders from across the north and some Indigenous entrepreneurs, and the advice they gave us was to redefine entrepreneurship from an Indigenous world view. So it takes a very circular, holistic, interrelated approach and multi-dimensional approach to business. And so we piloted it in our second cohort rave reviews and we’ve just been continually iterating and using it as our tool for teaching business from an Indigenous-centered lens. So there’s different layers to it, but it’s looking at different directions of a business, different areas of the business. So leadership, marketing, operations, finance. And then how does that impact upon governance, community, land, economy?

Theresa [00:19:13] Speaking of multi-dimensional, you spent several years working for the government of the Northwest Territories before launching EntrepreNorth in 2018. What did that experience teach you?

Benjamin Scott [00:19:24] How to write a good briefing note. And you know, it gave me a really good in-depth insight into the challenges across the north. And I actually grew a passion for business because I was working within the education side of things and a lot of our focus was on labor market measures to close gaps in employment. But then when you look at the employment opportunities within communities, they just didn’t exist. And so in my mind, I was like, well, you know, I think there’s a gap here in supporting entrepreneurship and business and sort of where my passion for entrepreneurship and business grew and it’s kind of come full circle. So education, capacity building is super important, but also supporting people to grow and develop their own opportunities within their own communities that align with their values and their culture and identity is just powerful.

Theresa [00:20:17] Can you share with us some of the most exciting projects that EntrepreNorth is working on right now?

Benjamin Scott [00:20:22] Yeah, absolutely. I’d love to. EntrepreNorth has been having some exciting growth over the last three years and over just this past year, we started offering some community based ideation workshops for youth across the north, which is really exciting. We’ve had some really strong uptake, so that’s really exciting. We also just recently launched a new podcast series called Venture Out that focuses on telling the powerful stories of northern Indigenous entrepreneurs. And then we’re also working on an exciting partnership with Raven Indigenous Capital Partners to design and develop an impact-first fund to hopefully offer greater access to capital to lot of the entrepreneurs that we’re working with and others across the north that need access to capital.

Theresa [00:21:12] You mentioned off the top that you’re currently in North Vancouver and the work that EntrepreNorth, your organization, does extends across various communities and territories. How would you compare the entrepreneurial environment in the big cities and different regions compared to perhaps more remote cities and more remote communities?

Benjamin Scott [00:21:31] In bigger centers there’s obviously greater access to a lot of different supports, a lot of different resources, educational institutions compared to in the north. There’s limited access to these education opportunities, limited access to connections and networks. So I think the ecosystem is obviously a little bit stronger in some of the city centers in the south. And I think that’s a lot of what we’re trying to do also at EntrepreNorth is help strengthen those ecosystems of support through the programming that we do and then also bridging those North-South connections and building partnerships — and partnerships are just really key aspect of what we do — and bringing in relevant talent into our circle to support the entrepreneurs in their visions and their dreams of starting and growing a business.

Theresa [00:22:20] A few of my team members are working on a research report looking deeper into the digital divide between Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth. And you’ve mentioned this too: access to things like Internet infrastructure that enables entrepreneurs, but also differences in digital literacy. How has that played out for organizations and businesses in the north? And what are your thoughts on what needs to be done in the short term to be able to overcome that divide?

Benjamin Scott [00:22:46] Well, it’s a really important topic and it’s at the forefront of what we’re challenged with and delivering some of our programing. So I honestly, high-speed Internet, improved connectivity across the north cannot come fast enough. And I think it really leaves a lot of youth and younger entrepreneurs at a disadvantage for being able to access those educational opportunities and put their business online and gain greater access to markets that might not exist specifically in their smaller, more remote communities. So in EntrepreNorth, we’ve had to be really innovative and creative on how to troubleshoot, especially for anyone in Nunavut. I really feel for people in Nunavut who would have to struggle with the connectivity issues. We’ve ended up having to find ways to go around some of these challenges. So we’ve been able to offer some access to data and we’re using cellular data because the Wi-Fi connections are not strong enough to host, for example, Zoom sessions or online classroom environments. And I think the pandemic sort of amplified the urgency of going online to make sure that you still had access to customers and were able to sell your products still. So we’ve had a lot of conversations just around business pivots. And fortunately, we’ve developed some really strong partnerships with organizations such as Shopify, where we’ve been able to offer that type of platform to the entrepreneurs that we’ve worked with. And I think it’s it’s transformative to provide that opportunity and provide also the training to know how to use those platforms and get the most out of them. In our most recent cohort delivery, we’ve seen a number of new stores launch online, which is super, super exciting, and it’s just growing the marketplace of Indigenous made products and opening the doors for people to access those products from around the world and beyond.

Theresa [00:24:44] I’m hoping I could tie in the earlier point about the Indigenous worldview in business. And I’m curious if you’re seeing more of the organizations that you work with present this Indigenous worldview as they are also trying to reach beyond Canada, beyond the north, into the south, perhaps. Have you noticed that play out?

Benjamin Scott [00:25:04] Yeah, first in our program and we try to create spaces that uphold the cultural integrity of Indigenous communities that we serve first and foremost. And for the Indigenous entrepreneurs that we work with, it’s so integral to their entrepreneurial story and their business story. To infuse their culture and identity into their business model, into their products. And I think it positions them more strongly in the marketplace and allows them to really reach customers that have a passion for what they’re able to offer them and can really identify and have an appreciation for those types of products that tell a really powerful story.

Theresa [00:25:41] Mm hmm. As we come out of the pandemic, we hear the word resilience get used so much. And I know that resilience is an important part of the vocabulary of EntrepreNorth as well. What has the past year and a half taught you about resilience?

Benjamin Scott [00:25:57] You know, resilience is, it’s a big word. It’s a, it’s a process. And for a lot of Indigenous communities, a lot of Indigenous entrepreneurs, it starts with healing. A lot of history in Canada that wasn’t so great for Indigenous communities and so a lot of what I’ve been learning is through our work at EntrepreNorth is where you really have to take a trauma-informed approach to business education. And we try to support entrepreneurs on both sort of a dual personal and business growth journey, and they really go hand in hand. And we truly believe that in order for a business to thrive, an entrepreneur has to thrive. So we try to center the health and wellbeing of the entrepreneurs and all our business education that we do. And that becomes first and foremost. And I think that if we’re sort of relating it back to the situation that the world is in right now, I think that becomes super important because it’s also now at the forefront. The health and well-being of everyone is sort of at the forefront for the entrepreneurs, for the businesses, for the communities that we live within. And then for the customers that we serve.

Theresa [00:27:06] Yeah, a company is its people. And you’re right, for a company to thrive, its people need to thrive. Benjamín, this is such a powerful conversation. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

Benjamin Scott [00:27:16] Thank you so much. Really appreciate the opportunity.

Theresa [00:27:19] My guest today has been Benjamin Scott, project director for EntrepreNorth. I’d also like to thank Jarret Leaman, founder of the Center for Indigenous Innovation and Technology.

[00:27:29] I’m Theresa Do and this is Disruptors, an RBC podcast. Don’t forget to check out our new report, Preparing Indigenous Youth for a Digital Future. You can find the link in the show notes.

[00:27:39] And join us next time when…

[00:27:47] Talk to you soon.

Tracee Smith [00:27:53] Disruptors RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service. It’s produced and recorded by our audio for more distractors content like resubscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit Ask.com slash disrupters.

Speaker 1 [00:00:03] Hey there, I was going for a walk along the waterfront the other day, which is the only thing we Ontarians can really do nowadays, looking out at Lake Ontario and the Toronto Islands. And it made me think about what this past year has brought into focus in terms of our natural environment. There were positive environmental effects from some of the pandemic lockdown measures, clouds of pollution, lifting waters, clearing animals, venturing into quieter cities, and it felt like the earth finally had a chance to breathe. It’s made many people wonder, myself included, are these temporary changes something that can be sustained and if so, how? I’m Trinh Theresa Do, please call me Teresa, I’m sitting in for John Stackhouse, and this is Disruptors and RBC podcast.

Climate change feels like it is the singular issue of our time and a massive problem that needs to be solved, but the challenge when it comes to our air, our water and our earth, there are so many different approaches and stakeholders with so many different and often competing interests and success metrics and the need to find ways of coordinating and collaborating across organizations and across borders is critical. So on this special Earth Day episode, we’re going to explore block chain and how various block chain driven programs might just help us find better ways to work together in our fight against climate change. And just so we’re all on the same page. I’m going to quickly bring in a clip from my colleague, Kaushik Venkatadri. He is the senior director for the Blockchain Centre of Excellence at RBC. And this is his definition of blockchain,

Speaker 2 [00:02:00] blockchain is a technology for creating trust. It allows two parties to safely conduct a transaction or shared data, even if they don’t trust each other.

Speaker 1 [00:02:11] For more on this idea of blockchain as a climate change fighting tool, we’re joined by two guests today. Joseph Pallant is the founder of Blockchain for Climate Foundation, and Joseph has been working in the carbon market space for more than 15 years. Welcome to disruptors, Joseph.

Speaker 3 [00:02:26] Thank you, Theresa. Great to be here.

Speaker 1 [00:02:28] And also here with us today is Carolyn Dubois. She is the executive director of the water program at the Gordon Foundation and has led the development of a key initiative called Datastream. Hello and welcome to Disruptors.

Speaker 4 [00:02:40] Thanks, Theresa. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 [00:02:42] So before we get into the specifics here, it is an Earth Day episode, and I’m hoping to ask you, Carolyn, have you always felt connected to environmental causes? Were you one of those kids rescuing birds in your spare time?

Speaker 4 [00:02:55] That’s funny. You should put it that way, because I was definitely that kid. I have rescued many a bird in my time. And I and I would say that I attribute a lot of my interest in the environment to a lot of outdoor education as a kid. So I’ve always been interested in in the environment through canoe tripping and getting out on the water. It’s made me really passionate about environmental issues.

Speaker 1 [00:03:17] I love that small things in your childhood leads you to where you are today. And just of what about you? Has Green always been your favorite color?

Speaker 3 [00:03:26] It has. I grew up in British Columbia, a mix of on the coast and in the interior and have loved camping from an early age. Also benefited from amazing environmental education through the Earth program in grade 11. And Vernon, where we did a whole half year outdoors.

Speaker 1 [00:03:43] So, Joseph, can you tell us in a nutshell what the mission of your organization is?

Speaker 3 [00:03:48] So I’m the director of climate innovation at Ecotrust Canada, as well as the founder of Blockchain for Climate Foundation. And together we’ve put together we’re calling it the block chain for Climate Partnership, and we’re really bringing in the work of these two sort of missions of these two organizations to build a tool that we can move forward on climate, of course, with Action for Climate Foundation. We’ve been focused on building a blockchain based platform called the BITMO platform, or blockchain internationally transferred mitigation outcome platform to allow governments of the world to issue and exchange Paris Agreement compliant carbon credits.

Speaker 1 [00:04:30] That’s interesting and I think something will definitely include in our show notes. Carolyn, can you please tell us a little bit about what your organization does as well as datastream?

Speaker 4 [00:04:39] So what Data Stream is is an open access platform for sharing water data. So what I mean by this is this is literally an online site that anybody, anywhere in the world can access. And if you if you visit the site, you’ll have a map based search and you’ll be able to drill down to places you’re interested in and see what data is available there. So I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear that despite huge amounts of effort and energy put into research and monitoring on watersheds across the country, it’s very difficult to get your hands on data about your local watershed. So this has real consequences. So, for example, WWF Canada, in its freshwater health assessments in twenty twenty, found that for 60 percent of Canadian watersheds, there was insufficient data to assess freshwater health. So this is the issue that data stream is really drilled down into and is working to solve. And the reason that this is exciting is that it’s allowing for new connections to be made among researchers and it’s really providing this valuable foundation of data that we’re going to need now and into the future to be able to address environmental changes as they happen.

Speaker 1 [00:05:49] We take a step back. There is a tapestry of challenges and corresponding solutions to combat climate change, and some are focused on actually reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Others are honed in on mitigating its effects. Others seek to restore damaged ecosystems and so on and so forth. And so if I’m able to ask you, where does your work fit into the broader context, Carolyn will continue with you.

Speaker 4 [00:06:14] Yes, that’s a great question. What datastream is, is it’s really providing this data sharing infrastructure. It’s a neutral home for data, which is so, so important. And so one of the ways that we like to talk about our work is we think about, you know, the ideal scenario of what we call the data policy cycle. The idea that somebody goes out and monitors makes the data available. That data can then be interpreted and turned into knowledge. So by researchers saying, OK, well, here’s what’s happening in this watershed. And that can then point to solutions or new policies. So data stream really sits in that place in the data policy cycle, which is just serving up data on a neutral platform. So once you have that kind of infrastructure, all of a sudden all kinds of other things become possible. So you can start to point to solutions like we need to plant within this watershed in order to improve water quality, or these are the best management practices within this agricultural region that are really going to reduce algal blooms. We see ourselves as as working with those who are collecting with data, making it available so that we can inform that action on the ground. That’s really sort of the reason behind this fascination. And I’d say obsession with data might see that data stream has in.

Speaker 1 [00:07:34] Joseph, what about yourself? What makes the work of block chain for climate important?

Speaker 3 [00:07:39] The work at Blockchain for Climate Foundation and through the Election for Climate Partnership is focused on connecting the supply of emission reduction outcomes potentials with the demand and the capital to get it done. So we know that there’s vast opportunity for protecting forests, for managing forests better, for restoring forests. We know that there is opportunities for renewable energy that take place in other parts of the world. That simply wouldn’t happen without more carbon finance. There’s there’s projects everywhere around the world that can help us beat climate change. The issue has been how do we raise capital and demand to get those done? The Paris Agreement, Article six talks about and really sets the stage for trading of internationally transferred mitigation outcomes. It most you can just think of it as carbon credits that are achieved in one place and transferred to the other. And so the Paris agreement already is setting the stage for governments and and other individuals to be investing across country lines in emission reduction outcomes. What our system is trying to do is operationalize Article six of the Paris agreement, enable cross-border transactions where money gets spent, reduces emissions, and then the credit for that is transferred back to a country or a party that needs to reduce its emissions and then that that cycle can roll on.

Speaker 1 [00:09:13] And hearing you describe that, it resonates with me. In my past life, I was a project manager and this is very clearly a project management challenge. And so I guess I’m curious why block chain? Why is a distributed ledger the tool of choice for for reaching the solutions?

Speaker 3 [00:09:34] That is a great question. With a bit more platform, we enable governments to issue and exchange carbon credits that will be used under the Paris Agreement onto the block chain. We’re using non fungible tokens or NFTs to achieve this task where you can pack in all of the information about your carbon credit pack in the documents that certify that it’s real and then issue it out into the space. And you can transact with our platform or you can use one of the public platforms like Open Sea to engage with this as well. And so what it really does is it allows governments a tool to package up and enable for trade, green light for trade emission reduction outcomes that are achieved in their country. And it can run on the rails of the block chain with the clarity needed to dig in as much as you need to because of all of what we can pack into an NFT.

Speaker 4 [00:10:31] So the way that we use block chain as part of our platform, as part of the datastream platform, it’s really to ensure that there’s trust in the data and in the system. So how this works is that when somebody uploads data, it gets hashed and essentially you have a fingerprint of that data set and that’s then stored on the Ethereum blockchain. So at any given time, if somebody is looking at a data set, they can compare what they see on the block chain to what’s in our platform and ensure that it hasn’t been tampered with. Trust is so important if you’re asking people to share their data, they need to trust the platform that they’re sharing it with. And that’s really for us where block chain has come in.

Speaker 1 [00:11:09] I think this is starting to help me really understand how blockchain technology can bring greater transparency and accountability to the fight against climate change. And when we come back, we’re going to explore how these initiatives could extend beyond Canada’s borders for truly global impact. You’re listening to Disruptors, an RBC podcast, I’m Teresa Do, sitting in for John Stackhouse. In every episode, we reveal the opportunities ahead for Canadian businesses and how many are already making international waves. We also profile programs you may not be aware of. Over the past two years, the RBC Tech For Nature Initiative has donated 20 million dollars to partners just like Datastream and Blockchain for Climate Foundation in 2021. It has received almost 150 applications from others hoping to make the world a better place. If you’d like to learn more about NBC’s commitment to sustainability. I’d encourage you to check out our climate blueprint, which we’ll link to in the show notes. And if you’re enjoying this episode, please download our Business of Benevolence episode, which profiles how technology is changing charitable giving. Welcome back to disrupters. I’m Teresa Do guest hosting for John Stackhouse, and I’m here with Joseph Pallant, of blockchain for Climate Foundation and Carolyn Dubois of Datastream. Carolyn, can you clarify something that might be tripping? Some of us lay people up. Isn’t maintaining a block chain platform highly energy intensive as it is with Bitcoin? And doesn’t that run counterproductive in the fight against climate change?

Speaker 4 [00:12:42] It’s something that we’ve been thinking about a lot. And while we use the Ethereum block chain, it does have the same issues around energy consumption. And so what we’ve had to do is we’ve had to design a solution that doesn’t use blockchain. So often we’ve had to make a trade off of when are we going to use it? And the answer for us has been we’ll use it just enough for the for the parts of our transactions so that we can guarantee that data integrity. Now, we’re really excited for Ethereum 2.0 and proof of stake, which is coming. Proof of stake will allow for the energy use to go down in huge ways. It’ll be insignificant once proof of stake is launched. So we’re anxiously awaiting that day. And when that happens, we’re really excited because we think they’ll be even more uses for block chain. But, you know, these are things that we haven’t wanted to do until we’ve seen that energy consumption can come down.

Speaker 3 [00:13:37] I truly believe that the Ethereum blockchain is going to solve its emissions issues. And I’m trying to help it move beyond that and have some of those creative minds that work in Ethereum use their tools, use their skills to go beyond just getting to zero carbon and moving onwards to see what kind of impacts Ethereum can have on beating climate change farther and farther. Beyond that, it’s not the Ethereum block chain has no emissions are using. It has no emissions. It’s that fundamentally the theory and block chain does have emissions. There’s work being done to address and reduce and eventually completely do away with those emissions. That work is underway and really exciting to see happen. We see that the innovation and the power of the theory and block chain is so compelling that we are using this tool to build our platform with the comfort that it will not be causing extra climate emissions either because we’re able to do it in a very low carbon way through layer two scaling or proof of stake, or because we will offset any excess emissions that are caused by our project.

Speaker 1 [00:14:45] One of the things about climate change is that it doesn’t recognize national borders. And so Carolynn much of data streams work focuses on Lake Winnipeg, Canada, second largest watershed, which takes in water that then flows through four U.S. states and four Canadian provinces. And with block chain you have the data, but there’s a lack of control over legislation, politics or even physical factors on the ground affecting freshwater health, especially because these areas cross borders. How is blocking effective against these jurisdictional obstacles?

Speaker 4 [00:15:17] That’s a great question. And one of the things we talk about a lot when it comes to water management is, of course, that water doesn’t respect jurisdictional boundaries and managing it requires collaboration not just across national and international boundaries, but also across sectors. When you are collaborating in making water management decisions, one of the foundational things that’s needed is data, reliable data that you can use as fodder for informed conversations. So this is really what data stream is providing. And I want to touch on something that you said. We’re not you know, we don’t have control on the ground. And I think that’s absolutely true. And I’m based in Toronto and I do my work here. But the data stream is is being carried out in the Mackenzie based in the Lake Winnipeg, based in Atlantic Canada. All places I’m not in the way are coming to the Great Lakes. But I should say that part of what’s what’s so important about Data Stream is our regional partnerships. So in the Lake Winnipeg basin, for example, we partner with the Lake Winnipeg Foundation. And now, while I may not be on the ground, and while data stream may be existing in the ether online, there are real people who are out there and they’re collecting data about their local watersheds. People really, really care about their local waters and their best place to see changes as they happen. And this is a really powerful movement that we’re seeing.

Speaker 1 [00:16:41] And how is this data and information been effective in incentivizing the right behaviors?

Speaker 4 [00:16:47] When you’re having conversations about water management in the Lake Winnipeg basin, for example, the big issue there is eutrophication. The lake literally has so much algae that it’s it’s it’s causing major problems not just for the ecosystem, but also for people. And people who are using the water is now one of the problems is, as you said, that water makes its way through all of these jurisdictional boundaries. And the question that you then ask yourself is, Will, what’s causing these these algal blooms? And you really need data in. In order to be able to pinpoint those areas where, you know, you can invest in the entire basin, in remediation, in the entire basin, we need to really focus in those places where we’ll get the biggest bang for our buck in terms of reducing, for example, nutrients coming off the land.

Speaker 1 [00:17:36] Joseph, I’d like to turn back to you after market. Are the national parties or those ministries of energies worldwide? And I’m so curious, what has been the reception from those parties to the medium of exchange that you’ve described?

Speaker 3 [00:17:50] When we speak with national parties, as well as engage in meetings like the U.N. climate cops that happen and engage with people in the space, the the interest varies. And I think that as time has moved forward, there has been more acceptance and understanding of this new fangled technology of blockchain. And I also I’m looking forward to the next set of international meetings after this boom in understanding around non fungible tokens and AFTRS, because I think that that discussion has had legs. And finally, the discussion around the climate impact of Ethereum and and certain blockchains I also think has carried. And so being able to refine our discussion and clarify how our system is addressing those issues is really important. We’re targeting national parties. We’re targeting countries for our National Party working group to collaborate on building this out and eventually implementing our platform with countries that are natural buyers, sellers or our market makers, middlemen in the carbon market space so that the countries that are most likely to be interested in using a block chain based platform are going to be the same countries that actually just want to get going with the carbon markets and with international collaboration. Under the Paris Agreement, we know that Switzerland is really keen to buy. Chile is really keen to sell. They’re talking about and making announcements that they’ll be transferring most. But we know that there won’t be a system in place likely for quite a number of years. Yet if we don’t do something to try to speed that up and provide an alternate pathway,

Speaker 1 [00:19:34] that’s really interesting and definitely food for thought. Carolyn, you mentioned that Datastream is is open access. And I’m I’m wondering, have you seen just the fact that anybody can can check out the tool? Has that led to encouragement of the parties that are not moving as fast as they should?

Speaker 4 [00:19:56] Yeah, I would say that it’s been really exciting and I’m optimistic that we’ll continue on this path. There’s a huge cultural shift is taking place around sharing data. So I would say even five years ago, the resistance to put, for example, a researcher for them to put their water quality data on a platform like this and make it available for everybody to use, regardless of the questions that they’re asking about a watershed that has changed dramatically in the time that we’ve been working on this. And I do think trust is a really big, important part of that and that transparency that block chain brings. But I would say there’s yeah, there’s a huge cultural shift taking place. There’s a huge shift as well around who’s doing science. You know, more and more we’re starting to see you know, we’re hearing governments say, of course, we’ll use community based water monitoring data. You know, this idea that it can only be done by bona fide scientists, you know, that’s really changing. And I and it’ll change the way, you know, with with time, it’ll change, you know, what solutions we’re able to come up with for a lot of these environmental challenges.

Speaker 1 [00:21:02] And Canada has set a net zero emissions target for 2050. What are your hopes for what can be achieved on that front in the next 30 years?

Speaker 4 [00:21:09] Had a lot of time to reflect, thanks to covid just on how much this pandemic has changed our behaviors and how we think. And we’ve hit the pause button and started to explore our own backyards, our neighborhoods, our parks. You know, nearby, we’re traveling less for work. So I’m I’m really curious to see, you know, with this opportunity to step back, if we’ll start to ask ourselves, is a vacation once every two years abroad? You know, is that enough? And and I think that that sort of broad shift in terms of behavior within the population will be really interesting to see what happens there. And then more generally, in terms of technology, I’m I’m more optimistic than I have been in years. You know, when you’re seeing GM really looking at churning out electric vehicles, all electric vehicles, you know, that’s a huge shift. I’m hearing people who I never would have thought were environmentally minded or green saying that they really want an electric vehicle. That makes me excited and optimistic. And then finally, the fact that solar is now the cheapest. Energy in history, I believe it’s been it was declared last year. I mean, if that’s not cause for some optimism, I don’t know what is. So, yeah, I hope that we achieve our targets and exceed them in the next 30 years.

Speaker 1 [00:22:32] Hmm. It does it really does feel like a watershed, pardon the pun, moments here. Joseph, in 30 years, your four year old and newborn son will be all grown up and with possible children of their own. What do you hope to be able to tell them what we have done to fight climate change?

Speaker 3 [00:22:49] I earnestly hope that I can tell my sons that I have done everything that I could, that I could work as smart and as hard, and accessed as much wisdom from other people as well and fed that into making sure that humanity is avoiding the worst of the possibilities from the climate crisis. I also will say to my sons in 30 years from now and along the way and encourage everyone listening is to be courageous in your work, to fight climate change, be courageous in your work, to make the world a better place. However, you choose to do it because the problems that are facing us are real. And we’ve known about them for some time and there is optimism and hope, but there is a lot left to do and to truly bend that curve into a reality that is going to be OK for society and for the planet. We need to work hard, so be courageous and work hard,

Speaker 1 [00:23:53] inspiring and uplifting notes to end on. Carolyn Dubois is the executive director of the water program at the Gordon Foundation and the lead on developing datastream. I appreciate your time, Carolyn.

Speaker 4 [00:24:04] Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 [00:24:06] Joseph Pallant is the founder and executive director of Blockchain for Climate Foundation. And thanks for joining us today on disruptors.

Speaker 3 [00:24:13] It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 1 [00:24:14] And I’m Theresa Do. Thanks for listening to Disruptors an RBC podcast. We’ll make sure to include lots of links in the show, notes to the things we talked about in today’s episode in case you want to learn more. And in the meantime, please let me wish you a very happy Earth Day.

Speaker 4 [00:24:34] Disruptors, an RBC podcast is created by the RBC Thought Leadership Group and does not constitute a recommendation for any organization, product or service, it’s produced and recorded by our audio for more disruptors, content like or subscribe or ever you get your podcasts and visit RBC Dotcom Slash Disruptors.